An idiot and his table saw...

This guy purposely caused kickback on his table saw to prove a point.

Make sure you watch what happens at 4:20 into the video.

He agrees with anyone who calls him an idiot.

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Reply to
DerbyDad03
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He's not an idiot, he just didn't have the control over the situation as he expected. Shit happens, even with good intentions.

He proly would not have lost a digit or part thereof (as in a RAS), but he certainly came close to requiring a lot of stitches, and poss. nerve damage -- which can be almost as bad as losing a digit.

How does a riving knife work? Never saw one before this.

Reply to
Existential Angst

Apropos of this, the SawStop:

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claims sumpn like 3600 accidents a year, all severed digits? I doubt it. Table saws, iiuc, don't nec'ly sever digits -- RAS's do. So I'm sure plenty of people get deep cuts on table saws, but not nec'ly severings. He may have also been lumping RAS accidents with table saw accidents -- assholes aren't nec'ly careful with stats.

But, this demo was ess'ly bogus. If the saw stop didn't work, he would have gotten a bit of a nick (MAYBE), before his nervous system kicked in -- ESP the way his finger was glued to the table..... sheeit, I'da done that WITHOUT a saw stop.... gimme a fukn break with that bullshit.....

Now, let him put his system on a RAS, and test DAT with his finger, cutting in climb.... yeah, I'll hold effing breath....

Finally, the fuknCOST of this system.... holy shit.... God help the home woodworker if this thing ever becomes mandatory. Which could happen, given that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers:

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insufferable Manhattan Yupsters have a tough time swallowing this one. Trader4 and Terrel would proly buy a crawling helmet, tho....

Reply to
Existential Angst

I'd love to see the system! I wonder if it could be adapted to shapers, routers and other cutting machines. It would help a lot with OSHA problems where guards make production next to impossible.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

The problem with SawStop has been that each false alarm requires replacing various mechanical components, which takes time and money. It doesn't make too many false alarms to make guards more economical.

My recollection is that the sensor measures resistance (not capacitance) between saw blade and ground, so it won't work with wet wood or metal stock. The patents should tell the tale.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

On 12/4/2012 8:11 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: ...

AFAIK there's no data available from SawStop on the number of false positives (and, of course there's no data on how many users turn the bypass control on to be sure to avoid any chance of same when working with wet wood such as PT).

The best one can tell from the patent is

"In many of the exemplary embodiments and implementations described above and in the references incorporated herein, detection subsystem 22 relies on the inherent electrical capacitance and/or resistance of the user's body to modify the effective capacitance and/or resistance of the cutting tool or operative structure."

The patent is (as are all well-constructed ones) written to cover not only the actual "embodiment" but every possible variation of it that the applicant can manage to stretch the colorful language to cover. In early interviews it was pretty clear that it is capacitive coupling that was used at least in the initial product and I presume it is likely still the same fundamental technology used in the current saws w/ some improvements owing to the experience factor. It's the same idea as the "touch switches" on table lamps, etc. -- the body has much higher capacitance owing to the water content than does dry lumber and if the blade monitor sees a drop it presumes that's not good and fires.

It's a clever technology and worthwhile--my complaint w/ Gass is his attempt to now force it on the market to make a bundle by legislative/mandatory means rather than by winning the competitive battle in the marketplace.

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Reply to
dpb

On 12/4/2012 12:45 PM, Existential Angst wrote: ...

...

Actually, I have seen a demo of Gass w/ a hotdot on a stick and swinging it pretty quickly. It didn't get more than a nick that at most a stitch or two would take care of.

As for the VW, sure--it was nothing but a tin can on wheels then...otoh, a 1975 Buick weighed probably 25% more than the largest one you could manage to equip today and that's pretty much true on the overall US fleet average. Has had to happen because of the EPA fleet-average mileage rules...

The cost differential on the SawStop is owing imo to brand identification and uniqueness in the field as well as to the actual production cost differential between that saw and the same one w/o the actuator mechanism--that really is a meaningless comparison as there isn't any such thing as the Sawstop cartridge mechanism must be designed into the saw from the git-go--it can't be retrofitted into a conventionally designed/built saw.

Just as PM and Delta get a premium over Jet for only moderately better performing saws--they get it because of the reputation they've built over the years (whether it still deserves the same respect is immaterial as long as they can command the differential it's a real effect).

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Reply to
dpb

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote: ...

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently unsafe... :)

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then sues because the saw should've known that and not let him...

Reply to
dpb

On 12/4/2012 12:33 PM, dpb wrote: ...

I was going to add that it will be _most_ interesting when the first failure to actuate when needed occurs and the ensuing lawsuit forces him/SawStop to rely on the same arguments to try to defend his bottom line as they used against the present manufacturers of inherently unsafe... :)

It _will_ happen eventually; no technology is completely failure-proof either from a simple failure of the mechanics to fire when demanded or the electrical sensor system fails or whatever.

Or, the doofus operator like the one that got Hitachi(?) who has no knowledge of the operation and doesn't know the override is on and then sues because the saw should've known that and not let him... ========================================================================== Or the guy that has it turned off because he doesn't want an accidental trip, hurts himself and then sues, claiming that it was on.

Reply to
CW

wood?

I normally have only a quarter to 3/8 inch of the blade above the piece of wood. (Higher for harder wood)

Reply to
Keith Nuttle

wood?

I normally have only a quarter to 3/8 inch of the blade above the piece of wood. (Higher for harder wood)

Reply to
knuttle

...

Theoretically, one could get close enough to the blade to trigger it w/o actually touching it. That scenario is mentioned in the patent background since the detection circuit is capacitively coupled there doesn't have to be actual contact if the disturbance of the capacitance field is sufficient the actuator logic will think "something's bad" and trigger.

At least initially there was a manual override switch that one could use to disable the detection circuitry and I presume there still is altho I haven't searched the current sales lit thoroughly. It was (is) there for the express purpose of preventing a false positive trip if the saw were being used for, say, wet PT lumber or some other product that had a high-enough capacitance to cause actuation. If the operator thinks it isn't needed for a given cut or forgets to flip the switch, that's a second category (albeit one could claim that one is operator error only, not a false positive, still, the effect is the same).

Similar to that is the possibility of an embedded metallic object (a nail, iow) that happens to also be in contact w/ the table at the time it's hit by the blade--that will almost certainly trigger it even though SS says just a nail if not grounded likely won't be large enough to.

There is always then the chance failure--stuff happens; no technology is perfect. Undoubtedly small, but still has to be finite and positive.

I notice now that SS has a submittal form for "saves" that says if you ship them the cartridge/blade and they can determine it actually was flesh that caused the trip they'll provide a replacement cartridge. That doesn't cover the cost of either repairing an expensive blade or replacing one, but it is something. Of course, in that case the avoided cost of the medical bills likely otherwise probably overshadow the repair costs significantly.

There is no information at all on the SS site on actual statistics of any value to do any estimation at all of either type of actuation--needed or false. There _is_ a (to me) blatant use of the scare stories and a big countdown clock of "time to next saw accident" that's just tacky, but then that's me...

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Reply to
dpb

On 12/4/2012 2:35 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: ...

Gullet should be at the surface cut or just tad proud for crosscutting/ripping, granted.

As for "never", well, every rule has its exception. If I'm cutting for a notch, I may well set the blade at its maximum height to have the least angle possible and thereby the shortest possible undercut on the back side of the piece...

But, in general, the point is good one...excessive blade exposure is to be avoided.

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Reply to
dpb

Hopefully, just the block and the blade. The entire machine is going to need a checking over, since whatever force isn't dissipated by crushing the block is going to absorbed by the parts it attaches to. Looks like the whole saw jumps in that demo.

OTOH, $20,000 for an ER visit will buy you one hell of a nice saw.

Reply to
Father Haskell

RE: Subject

The ambulance chasers are beginning to advertise on daytime TV here in SoCal for tablesaw accident victims.

Like the smell of blood draws some, money attracts the vultures.

Lew

Reply to
Lew Hodgett

HD proly took note. It's amazing the saws in their lumber dept can cut wood at all....

Reply to
Existential Angst

If I need to cut a notch..I use the horizontal bandsaw

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

  1. Lie
  2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
  3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
  4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
  5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
  6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Reply to
Gunner

1946 Movie, 'Little Giant'

Hercules

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Good luck trying to dado with that.

Reply to
-MIKE-

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:23:30 -0500, tiredofspam

Actually, the people complaining the most about the SawStop are those who hate Gass' attempt to have it mandated. The really sad part about that is because of their anger, it will likely prevent them from ever purchasing a SawStop and put them at risk of cutting a finger off.

Reply to
Dave

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