In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1% difference in measured strength between the two, which, and depending upon the project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into account other factors like convenience and speed, particularly when doing "production runs" in a small shop setting.
AND I would think stronger where you are using harder stronger tennons than the wood they are joining.
Hard maple loose tenons, epoxied in place, gets my vote for simplicity and highest strength.
TiteBondII for shortest clamp time.
Lew
The specific reference was to the recent FWW article, apparently not on your reading list. That's almost ironic, thinking back to our past conversations. Come to think of it, I don't particularly recall *where* I read it. The test featured dovetails, M&T, biscuits, and loose tenons. I'm pretty sure it was FWW, probably December or January.
Repeatable 1% variation even between two joints of the same type would be something to really crow about. If you can find a credible cite for 1% variability from M&T to loose tenon, I'll eat this keyboard I'm typing this on, every last sharp, broken shard of it, including the lead contents of its electronics. You wouldn't by chance care to restate what you wrote? I'm sure I read it wrong.
Think about it, loose tennons are typically made out of a straight grain hard wood. The tennon sculpted from the end of the typical board very very often has been done with less than desirable grain orientation. The loose tennon is glued inside "both" pieces, not just the in the one piece so regardless of the type wood you are using you get a more consistent strength tennon.
OK, let's take your particular "specific reference" then, where the strength differential is less than 3% ... doing NOTHING whatsoever to change the thrust/point of my statement.
And check those panties, Bubba ... untwisted, they'll improve your attitude/demeanor by at least that much.
LOL, No you certainly don't need any of them but they do make life easier and speed up production. Think about trading your TS in for a hand saw. ;~) The biscuit joiner is mostly helpful for alignment but does in deed add significant strength when gluing end grain. The biscuit adds strength to 45 degree mitered joints and to butt joints. I have had 2 biscuit joiners and eventually got the Domino. Now I have a machine that does what the biscuit joiner did and a machine that affords me the opportunity to quickly and easily make floating tennon joints which do indeed add lots of strength to any joint
;~) I started with one finish nailer 20 years ago, I have added a palm nailer, brad nailer, air stapler, pinner, and framing nailer since. Can I do the work with out them? Absolutely. If one broke today would I replace it? Probably before the end of the day. It's one of those deals where you wonder how you did with out them after you start using them. The specialized tools open up more opportunities.
I find it amazing anyone even uses a biscuit joiner, let alone a $700 Festool domino? I always knew they were not needed in the least for strength in panel glue ups, but thought they would work nicely for alignment, but knew from experience I could glue up table tops and door panels easily with just clamps and cauls.
I guess thats why I never bought one, but really, I like tools and could have talked myself into buying one eventually. This thread pretty much convinced me I don't need one at all. Sort of like a nail gun, I really, really want one (two), but have no use for it (them)...
Jack consider also that when thinking about a joint even an edge joint we typically do not consider lthe board having a less than desirable edge. I work with a lot of red oak and the edge of a perfectly straight board may very well have grain that runs at an angle to the edge and eventually will open up on the edge of the board. It is true that glue is most often stronger than the wood itself so the joint line is unlikely to break. BUT the wood itself is often weaker than the glue line and the extra tennon and or biscuit in that joint adds strength to the board in from the joint line . I have seen glued up boards break right beside the joint line along a weak grain line. The better tennon or biscuit will help to reinforce the weaker areas of of the board near the joint line.
At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection.
Wow!
Yet you put one (or two) every 12"?
Not sure how that helps much, but OK. I generally do other things while the glue dries, and there is seldom enough time for me to get other stuff done. Also, if the glue isn't dry enough, I don't think I would depend on biscuits much to keep things together...
I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. I use a Lamello
So then the whole purpose of biscuits is to reduce gluing time, because alignment ain't it, and strength ain't it?
So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between
Yes, that sounds like an idea. Personally, I like cauls and clamps, and really like as little metal as possible in my woodwork. I think the nail pins you use would be particularly useful if one had no planer, or sander to insure perfect equal thickness of the boards and needed one face flat, and the other could vary a bit. Then a domino, or pins would be helpful to get one flat face.
A little beating and hollering gives a piece character, or at least keeps the wife and kids out of your way:-)
I watched Norm build an exterior door out of like 2" Mahogany and he used floating tenons. He made 3/8" mortises 2 1/2 deep in the rails and styles. He then glued in the floating tenons in each style. They were a perfect fit in thickness, but had about a 1/4" play on each side of the mortise. He said that was not important... I guess he is right but I never saw that done before. More often, I've seen the tenon sides rounded over for a prefect fit in the router made mortise.
Just thought I'd mention that...
BTW, the only hard part in making the exterior door was paying for the wood, which Norm said was "expensive". My guess is it was just a bit under a wheelbarrow full in Obama money. Certainly not even a billion...
I never knew this. Do they come in a hermetically sealed mayonnaise jar (asks Jack wearing his best Johnny Carson turban hat?) Seriously, a good idea then would be to store them in a mayonnaise jar, with some of that desiccant thing-ees that come with pills or packaged with some tools and electronic things. I store those small tubes of super glue gel in baby food jars or old pill containers with those things in them to keep the moisture away...
Don't do what you are doing right now while eating Cheetos.
They'll turn your pecker orange.
Regards,
Tom Watson
Your "1%" is complete bullshit. Just man up and say so.
FWIW, the author also expressed surprise. I was more interested in the dovetail tests.
I have a box of Lamello biscuits sitting in the original shipping container, a cardboard box with no liner.
It's for face alignment during the glue up, not strength afterward. There's nothing scientific about it. For an edge joint 3' or 4' long, 3 biscuits "feels" too few; 4 biscuits works out to about a foot or so between each; 5 feels a bit over done.
The Lamello biscuits are compressed beech and are intended to be used with a white or yellow glue (aliphatic resin). The moisture from the glue expands the biscuits to the degree that the clamps can be removed in about half the usual time without the panel relaxing and damaging the partially cured glue line.
This is important in a situation where you are making a number of panels and want to keep production moving. I usually set up four gluing stations and by the time I have the fourth panel in clamps the first panel is ready to be removed from clamps.
BTW - biscuits have been around far longer than you might think. I've disassembled door casings from the 30's that had what were referred to as "Lemon Splines", essentially the same as biscuits but they were machined with horizontal slotters and the lemon splines were not compressed. Theses mitered joints were still in very good condition.
Regards,
Tom Watson
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