My father has a biscuit jointer, and I borrowed it once for doing some edging. After a bit of trying, I found that no matter how careful I was, I ended up getting errors as often as not(about 1/2 mm or so), which added a lot of extra work. It might have been the model of biscuit jointer, or my inexperience, I don't know. In any case, I got out my router, and cut some splines. I got no error whatsoever after many edges, so that's my prefered method now.
A tool not worth the cost??????
You simply do not understand and are committing a serious heresy with those words. Do you really belong on the wreck or are you just trolling?
:-)
Luigi
Unfortunately, it's probably not. Way back when the biscuit joiner was introduced, people were running around touting it as the best thing since sliced bread. Then everyone started using them and... they're just not. They're great for alignment, certainly, but they're really not going to add any strength to your joints and you can certainly do a lot better. Now the tool is ubiquitous. The same will be true of the Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
In the end, the Domino will just be another piece of early-adopter junk, in a few years everyone will have their own versions out, you can pick a cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a faster way.
Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker joints?
EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength, and more. Scientific enough for me to prove that biscuits add strength.
FWW did a pretty comprehensive set of joint style/fit/glues test a year or two ago at the lab at (iirc) Case Western.
I _believe_ I remember that loose tenons came in _slightly_ behind integral ones; not greatly, but a little iirc.
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Jack Stein wrote: ...
I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...
OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests included biscuits--I don't recall.
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Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He tested both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.
A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit joint do that?
NOT biscuits. Documentation that Domino joints are weaker and not a better way.
MikeWhy wrote: ...
That's exactly what one would expect given the mechanical differences between them--and I was pretty sure I remembered the test results confirming it for the two m&ts, but didn't remember whether the biscuits were included in that set of testing or not.
I'd never think of using them for the purpose for anything other than simply holding a face frame together or some other similar non-critical, non-stressed location.
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Perhaps he meant strongER. Edge gluing long grain to make panels rather than using plywood is what the guy was asking about. It is well known today's glue makes long grain joints stronger than the wood itself. Ergo, the only purpose of dowels or biscuits in this type of joint is alignment, not strength. My experience is to just glue up the joint with no dowels, biscuits, splines or anything else is easy and sufficient. IF I had a nice biscuit joiner, I might use it sparingly to align things easily, but not for strength.
It is also well known that end grain joints require more than glue, and need mortise and tenons, biscuits or dowels for strength. There is little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joint is a heck of a lot faster to make. Dowel joints suck and are difficult to make without the proper equipment, and the little dowel jigs sold at hardware stores ain't the proper equipment, in my limited experience.
From watching all the tool salesman on TV, they seem to use biscuits mostly for edge gluing, and they use like a million of them on each edge, with glue squirting out everywhere. Really lame.
Mortise and tenon is occasionally still used by Norm to sell the Delta mortiser I reckon, but Scott tends to use the Kreg Pocket hole machine for about everything. I do have the pocket hole thingee, also have a mortise machine. Not sure why the $700 Festool gadget is not used for this stuff, as it seems it's mainly what it's good for.
That's a silly question. You would never use a biscuit w/o glue. Biscuits are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand them for a tight fit upon *proper* installation.
So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly installed.
By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern glue. Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time, that was a real consideration.
-Steve
Google "rhetorical question".
ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat surprise coming.
They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and look at the moment.
I never say never
When rely on glue and glue alone to hold up someone you care about, you _are_ saying "never". And if your wife or mother ends up with a chair leg up her butt because you made the chair with biscuits instead of dowels or mortise and tenon then you will never hear the end of it.
: They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not : mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did : not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and : look at the moment.
Their initial 2007 review was extremely positive:
I couldn't find a strength test (or more recent review) on their site.
-- Andy Barss
Most modern glues are stronger than the woods we use them on, if something fails, it's invariably the wood, not the glue itself. Therefore, the consideration, as you point out, is the joints we use, we cannot put forces on the joints that exceed their breaking strength and far too many people overestimate the strength of joints because they're fast or easy. The best joints are always going to be integral M&T and dovetail, I wouldn't risk anything ending up my wife's backside by using less.
: They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not : mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did : not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and : look at the moment.
Found it: Fine Woodworking, January 2009.
and letters and discussion here:
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