and much higher. Cisco Systems has moved teams of development and software testing to India, HP, MS and American Express all moved call centers there.
minimum wage has nothing to do with offshore jobs, just greed, plain ole Merican greed.
BRuce
Charlie Self wrote:
We need to send all those Chinese jobs....too Mexico...so they can stay home.......
This is a toughie.
First off, I don't think anyone should buy junk, no matter where it is made.
However, one could push the concept further and insist on buying only items made in Wisconsin, or whatever it is you reside. After all, why put someone out of work in Wisconsin by buying something made in California?
Turn this around and look at it from the viewpoint of someone in Poorcounrty, Aftrica. He can make a quality product and sell if for less, so we tell him that he ain't an Americian, so he can starve no matter how good his stuff is?
Or, maybe good ol' Uncle Sam should put a tarrif on imported tools, no matter how good or bad, so we can all pay more and keep a few more overpriced workers employed.
(Remove tung from cheek.)
I think everyone should have a fair change to make a living by selling a good product at a fair price, no matter who he is or where he is. All else being equal, I'd rather buy from my neighbor than someone half way around the world - Its easier to get my hands around his throat if something goes wrong.
I also think that the typical US consumer doesn't know a quality product when he sees it, so he has only two things left to make a buying decision on - price and features. Since most of us don't have the money for all the bells and whistle, we go with the lowest price - usually meaning cheap and foreign. I think we need to consider ourselves lucky that there are as many good products at reasonable prices as there are. A lot of that is due to the ability of some poor slob living in a hut to do quality work at a horribly low wage. There's more to the world than the US of A - for better or for worse.
Allen
Greed is a portion of the equation. Consumers DEMAND low prices. Are you willing to pay a higher price for USA made goods? Put a Brand X saw from USA and one from China side by side. Only difference is the price tag, the US made is $100 more. Make your choice. Just read this newsgroup about tools and see the questions about getting the best deal or lowest price.
Back in the 80's when PCs were hitting the home market, a keyboard made in the US was about $130. Today you can get one made overseas for $10.
At work I just bought 2 containers of material from Korea. I saved the company about $8000. Am I greedy? No, because my competitors are doing the same thing and pricing the final product accordingly, not making greater (if any!) profit from it. If I did not do so, we'd be out of business in six months. Ed
- I've a 2002 Suburban I bought as a retirement gift to myself 16 months ago and love it, 11k miles so far. The jury is out on how long it'll last when we start travelling the US though.
- I've a 96 Saturn SL2, can't complain about it either. 35mpg road, 29 in town & has 65k miles. Great car so far - wife loves it.
- I've a 92 Ford 4x4 Supercab (300cid & 5spd OD trans), engine is pretty good but the rest of it is shit. WW switch is AFU and certainly doesn't need a dozen variable speeds. Ign switch won't center. Mirrors both broke the housings instead of laying into the side of the door when I needed them to. Been thru 1 clutch and 2 throwout bearings, and 1 transmission ($1500) and I did the R&R. Been thru 3 air conditioning compressors so far. It eats front pads annually. Dash broke from lower rt corner and rattles & shakes from hitting a speed bump, a freaking normal speed bump! I haul no heavy loads, rarely tow except our 15' camping trailer 2-3 times a summer and do not overload or abuse - ever. Has 92k miles & was bought new.
- last one is an 89 Daihatsu, uglier than homemade sin, like an egg on 4 wheels, too ugly for anyone to steal but runs and runs and runs with never a problem. 40 mpg in town and dependable. Has 92k miles & bought w/ 25k miles. Best damned vehicle I ever owned.
Thats probably due to better paint and undercoats, not the mechanical side of the vehicle, unless its dying before it has a chance to rust.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head (hey, that on topic, right?) with that one. Why else would be produce something that is not intended to last except for greed, and some stimulation to the economy I suppose. However R&D for a lot of companies (not all thank goodness) is almost non existant.
Now that I'm retired I'm see> and much higher. Cisco Systems has moved teams of development and
Yeah. I've got one of those. I use the Microsoft shaped keyboard. Bought one of the first ones out for a total of just a shade under 100 bucks. When it started getting a little iffy, I went looking and found a similar keyboard...or so I was told. That was about 30 bucks. At this point, I'm using the old keyboard, cleaning it often, even though the keys still stick enough to screw up my typing.
Greed is not a component, nor is a desire to save money on important components. I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this one. Even a bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably haven't for several years.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." Sir Winston Churchill
But those are not minimum wage jobs in the U.S. My guess is they're also not minimum wage jobs in China, but maximum wage is so much lower that it's like paying half the minimum here.
I really don't see how you can equate problems with minimum wage with people who make two and three times minimum wage.
It isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in deep doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks. And we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what came to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents and grandparents did it. I don't think we can.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." Sir Winston Churchill
My understanding (which could be wrong) is the U.S. lacks many of the necessary quantities of raw materials (like oil and many metals) for extended self-sustained manufacturing anyway.
-- Mark
snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m03.aol.com:
Wrong all the way. From engine through galvanizing through suspension, the cars are built better. You're one of the few who would contest that. 100K used to be an old car. Now it's middle-aged.
I had a Crescent wrench in one hand for $18 and a Husky wrench in the other hand for $10. The Husky was better because it was polished. I bought the Crescent simply because it is made in the USA.
Brian Elfert
The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for a reasonable price.
The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice, has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.
The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles and 12 years with no significant problems.
You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?
If you have a job, sure.
I have only one bench grinder in my shop, mostly for sharpening lawn mower blades. It's a 3/4HP, costs $28, and made in China. Really cheap, been running for years, and useful. I doubt the USA could make them that cheap.
I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So it isn't the American worker.
Steve:
I think you need to wake up about jobs going oversea's. I work selling software and all of my clients are moving their IT staff over to India, China and Phillipines. It is call L-1 Visa's and offshoring. These are $40,000 -100,000+ jobs. Never coming back. Go to Businessweek.com and search on L-1 Visa or outsourcing. You will be suprised that it is also accounting, radiology, engineering, architects, drafting,and on and on.
Rich
You're throwing out the good along with the bad IMO.
Like you, I've had a few bad experiences with Fords. So I don't buy Fords anymore. I *do* buy other American cars.
Our last four cars have been General Motors products of one type or another (an Olds, two Buicks, and a GMC truck) and we have been quite happy with all of them. One of these was an '84 Le Sabre that we bought in '91 at 55K miles, and was still running fine when we sold it in '02 at 208K.
Every one of these has been much easier, and cheaper, to maintain than either of the foreign cars I've had (a Mazda and a Fiat -- now *there* was a true piece of crap: Fix It Again Today). So should I not buy foreign cars, because of "that kind of track record"?
Don't see why I should, considering my positive experiences with GM cars... but I won't rule it out, either (except in the case of Fiat).
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
Mark Jerde responds:
Oh, hell yeah. But we've got all the oil we need for 10 mpg SUVs.
Charlie Self
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." Sir Winston Churchill
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