Wanker Roofers

It never ceases to amaze me how one trade buggers up another trades' work. I plumbed by brother's bathroom but had to take the towel rail off for the tiler. Of course, after tiling, the tails didn't come through the wall anywhere near where they had to be to connect back to the towel rail. The tiling was actually done really well, but the guy knew nothing about any other building trade.

Sorry for your troubles ... I was amused this thread appeared a few hours after "Annoying Tradesmen".

Of course, under the moronic implementation of English "consumer rights", you have to give the original workman a chance to put things right* before deploying the sorely deserved sueball he really needs.

You can probably just make up an offset connector with a couple of shallow elbows so both the existing sections line up properly.

Be sure there are no flue gas leaks. Could lead to a very dangerous situation. (Carbon monoxide.)

It seems they would not be qualified or legally allowed to work on the flue themselves anyway. So a reasonable solution would be to request they send a gas safe registered fitter around to fix the problem at their expense. Highlight if they fail to do so, you will employ your own and recover the costs through the small claims procedure if they fail to pay.

This is a serious fault and potentially very dangerous... A flue venting into the fabric of the building could be exposing the occupants to a risk of CO poisoning.

(it also suggests that the original flue installation may[1] have been substandard - since normally when a flue section joins you are required to drill through the outer and insert a self tapper through the walls of both sections so that they are locked together and can't vibrate or pull apart. ISTR a gas fitter was found negligent in case fatal CO poisoning case where a flue extension separated)

Thank you Harry and John for the CO warnings, fortunetly we have a CO alarm nearby and so far it has not registered any CO presence. I must admit the loft filling up with condensate was my original concern as the results were the most immediately obvious, however the CO problem did cross my mind.

Thank you for your detailed answer John especially about the securing of sections together, I seem to recall there being some holes on the joining pieces. I will take another closer look tomorrow and hopefully get some photos. If someone has failed to initially insert such screws or subsequently removed them then they should no longer be allowed to carry out such work. With this in mind to whose attention should I bring this matter to - Gas Safe or HSE or both?

Richard

It seems more likely that the roofers caused the disconnection, but harder to say if the flue sections well enough fixed in the first place to make this difficult / impossible.

I would be inclined to get a copy of the boiler install manual and check the manufacturers instructions on installing and securing the flue. (just in case they have some other method of securing the sections).

If they are supposed to be screwed and there are no screw holes at all, then that would indicate that the original fitter could have done a sub standard job. If there are holes and it looks like there is evidence that there was a self tapper in them at one point, then it could be the roofers, actually took the sections apart deliberately.

The gasman cometh.

Andy

You would be amazed how long that tape can last, if its the proper stuff! What are you doing about the existing damage though, could this be claimed on the roofers insurance? Brian

Tricky Dicky formulated the question :

Get in touch with the roofer, explain what they have done in interfering with the flue is not only illegal, but put your family at risk of being CO poisoned - ask what they are going to do to sort it out quickly. Explain it needs a qualified engineer to refit it, that they ought to have got a qualified engineer before disturbing it.

Further explain that their roof ought to have been installed to suit the flue, you don't modify flues to suit changes in the roof - so engineer and roofer will have to attend at the same time, to sort it out.

Here is a photo of the two parts pushed together as best I can, the inner flue is kinda in and condensate is going up out the vent now. when I first went up the two parts were literally side by side. You can see how far out of the vertical the upper part of the flue is out. What I thought were screw holes turns out are pop rivets holding a spacer to hold the inner tube central in the outer tube. There is no evidence that there ever were any screws holding the flue together. The bend piece is not exactly tight on the lower tube and can easily be rotated.

Richard

Its the inner that is of key importance, since that contains the combustion products. Most of the water should have been extracted in the main HEX in the boiler - but there will still be some more in the flue gasses that can condense out in the flue, and should run back to the boiler. (More so on longer flues).

Check the installation manual for the boiler (or you may even find there is a dedicated manual for the flue system for the boiler) - it should have explicit instructions on the flue, and how sections should be joined.

(For example, in the Vaillant flue install manual for the EcoTec range, it has frequent instructions like "Secure the air duct sections together by drilling a 3 mm diameter hole through the location hole in the end of the outer air duct. (Ensure that the drill does not pierce the inner flue duct). Secure the air ducts together using the screw provided.")

Might be a bit harder if you don't give them a chance to make it right first though - even if you stipulate that the work must be done by a third party Gas Safe registered installer.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 10:17:15 -0700 (PDT), Tricky Dicky snipped-for-privacy@sky.com wrote: [snip]

.. come to a sticky end.

John Rumm was thinking very hard :

I agree with John..

You could send them a letter with proof of posting to the registered company address stating all the risks & criminal elements of their work, and itemising the damage they are required to pay to correct, namely roof work, flue work & rectifying all the other damage that has resulted. I'd get minimum 3 quotes for those jobs, add the cheapest ones up & demand they pay that. I'd point out that if they refuse, they will be taken to court for the money & all legal costs, and [whichever is the correct place to report them] will be involved over which they may face criminal charges. NEVER ask them what they will do, or any other question. State that given their incompetence, negligence, damage & criminal actions they will not be permitted to return to do any work themselves. Ensure you have expert evidence & make it clear you do.

They might not be able to pay, if that's a possibility I'd indicate that a signed agreement to pay so much per month would be accepted if & only if payments continue without interruption until the full amount is cleared.

NT

Don't rely on CO alarms. They may not detect CO. (Pressing the test button only checks the battery). The rest of it has a limited life, they are usually date stamped.

Also positioning is critical.

But is this a concentric flue of about 4 inches diameter or a split system using 50 mm mupvc, as used by Keston and others ?.

I didn't think any screws held either type together, but relied on O rings to make the seal and external clamps to prevent movement ?.

Its not the seal that is the issue. The flue system should include some mechanism to stop the assembled bits from pulling or vibrating apart.

Some do use clamps or collars for this... hence why you need to look at the instructions for the particular flue system in the manual.

I had a look at the installation instructions and there is no mention of using any screws to fix the flue sections. The boiler is Bosch Worcester 28i Junior using their 100mm flue system. There are brackets available and one is fitted but only to the lower section, the top section was only held in place by the angled join in the lower section and the position it went through the roof. The gas man is coming today but over the phone he mentioned it was his policy to fix flue sections with self tappers.

Looking at it again and trying to remember the relative positions of the two separated pieces, the two ends were literally side by side, so I am hoping using another angled join to produce a dog leg instead of the simple bend might solve the problem with no need to tamper with the roof.

Richard