Kitchen electrics.

[Graham.]

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's not been the case for about five years has it?

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back half of the kitchen.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.

I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no more!

[ARW]

Why are you using him?

[spuorgelgoog]

Not AFAIK, and there would be good reason for a kitchen sharing a ring or rings with other rooms with low power demand. A lot of houses are split front/back with means the kitchen shares the socket circuit with the back bedroom.

No, and really rather inconvenient if *all* the sockets in the kitchen went off. I'd much rather split a kitchen over two circuits if possible.

Ask to see his demand and cable sizing calculations as part of the design certificate.

Owain

[John Rumm]

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations" category.

Its never been a wiring regs requirement, however it is a sensible rule of thumb with a modern kitchen.

Not that I am aware of.

Well if he really is putting in a new circuit, then the existing kitchen one can be demoted to just running the conservatory.

Well, in a sense there is nothing wrong in a regulatory sense with adding a radial circuit, and in the grand scheme of things probably represents only a small part of the total cost of the project. However, you probably don't need it (certainly in a domestic setting anyway).

[Tim Watts]

Correct.

Utter bollocks.

I have 2 rings in my (largish) kitchen/diner to even the load distribution. One doubles to the lobby and the other feeds a bedroom behind. Drawn on a floor plan they make geographic sense.

No you wouldn't. You'd take into account a number of factors and do what made sense overall :)

Not at all a problem.

Given he's so clueless, I wouldn't let him touch anything.

[John Rumm]

Yup, sorry - spotted that as I just re-read the bit you quoted!

Could be...

[John Rumm]

Yup a complete new circuit would become "notifiable".

[Harry Bloomfield]

Graham. was thinking very hard :

Your kitchen fitter certainly doesn't sound as if he is qualified to do the job, or produce the paperwork.

[John Rumm]

There was a time when 2.5mm^2 cable had a 1mm^2 CPC. However that was later changed to 1.5mm^2 (probably anything installed after 1981 should be ok). So there will still be some old installations out there with the thinner CPC, but that does not mean *all* red/black installs are like that.

It would be unwise to use it on installations with old BS3036 re-wireable fuses, but on a modern install it will usually be ok (although one should check by calculation)

[ARW]

Could be worse, he could be NICEIC.

[tabbypurr]

sort of. If you're starting from scratch it's a sensible enough decision. If instead it would require extra work, there is seldom good reason to implement it.

Some folk think a 32A crcuit can only supply 32A, but that isn't how it works. The 32A rating is a continuous one. For a minute or 2 here & there load can go way higher without problem, and often does. It's not unusual to find unambitious kitchens where load rises to over 45A at times on an old 30A circuit. Kettle, washing machine, microwave, those alone get you a peak of around 30A. Add a toaster and another heating device and you're well over 40A on occasion.

and that's likely why he's feeding you bs. If you must use him, just say no, you're the customer and don't have to pay his little scams.

NT

[Graham.]

v

You may well ask! Kitchen fitter's original trade was electrician, apparently.

[Graham.]

Thanks Owen, that makes sense.

[Graham.]

Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the rewire

[TheChief]

Hi John

Been out of this for a while fortunately, but wouldn't the additional new circuit put it back into Part P. May be irrelevant in this situation and more a point of interest

Phil

[TheChief]

Thx John

[Graham.]

"Can not use the existing red/black 2.5mm cables because the CPC is thinner than modern cable" I'm sure it is thinner but is it true it can't be used?

I am guessing that the answer depends on whether or not it's a new circuit.