Sash window repair/replacement

[GMM]

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the knackered ones are my current concern: The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot and cracks and holes in the panes. These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.

It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) are: To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it). Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the house). Or - DIY. Although I have done plenty of things, I've never done this, hence this post.

There's plenty of info around the web on the components of a box sash window but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience of building the whole thing from scratch. And, particularly, what the gotchas are: The sashes look on the simple side, but I suspect the box frame is more complex to get right.

Of course, these were originally knocked up by Victorian carpenters without the benefit of modern power tools etc, so it should be easier these days. And the cash saved might justify some new toys.

On the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate the skill of the Victorian chippy. The fact that all the windows in the house are original after

150 years shows they did a pretty good job. The degradation is, of course, the result of neglect/lack of maintenance since then.

One thing they may have had was decent timber to work with, but I would get something half decent from the local timber yard/mill - it doesn't cost much more than the sheds' basic rubbish to get good stuff.

Undoubtedly, someone will tell me there should be building regs involved, but we'll worry about that if anyone ever asks. For the moment, we'll just call it a repair......

[Ericp]

There are many firms around in all areas that do sash work. These vary from the single guy who re-sashes, to larger firms that repair and fabricate whatever is necessary to make good.

Before anything you would benefit from consulting a couple of them to clear your mind on what needs doing.

You may find one of them will be interested in the on/off work situation available and give a very good price as a result. You will of course pay by result, not up front.

I have made one sash window many moons ago. I love working with wood but would never attempt it again without a workshop available, particularly when a steep learning curve is involved.

[John Rumm]

No, but it sounds like the kind of job that would be fun to have a go at, as long as you have access to reasonable workshop facilities.

A quick search did turn up:

This might also be worth a look:

[stuart noble]

The sills are relatively easy to repair with 2 part filler and/or new timber.

I would leave the boxes alone if at all possible. A neighbour had replacements made and the weights never traveled as freely as in the originals.

I'd say you need workshop facilities to make new sashes, particularly if they have a centre bar. I repaired mine 20+ years ago using only car body filler. There is a knack to using that stuff which you would no doubt acquire with 17 to do.

[Nightjar]

Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

Still not cheap, but certainly cheaper than having them made to order.

...

You could probably simplify that considerably by using gas struts instead of weights.

Colin Bignell

[Jim K]

I would expect those to be standard sizes to suit modern build methods & brick sizes, lintels etc - so a large "luck" factor retrofitting to a period house

Also get quotes from a few builders merchants to size up the true cost.

the also offer "made to measure"... at some price..

Jim K

[Jim K]

you seen these?

I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...

From a distance you;d never know...

Jim K

[Nightjar]

....

I would expect them to be available in all the common Imperial sizes that Victorian builders are likely to have used, but I do have the advantage of having the catalogue. In fact, windows that don't match to Imperial sizes are in a distinct minority and are mostly casement types.

BTW, 'modern' brick sizes date back to an 18th century statute limiting the maximum size; a result of ever increasing brick sizes to avoid the brick tax. By the time the tax was repealed, in 1850, most brick making was industrialised and the size was fixed by the machinery.

Colin Bignell

[Martin Bonner]

Boggle? Aren't they *all* going to be an unusual size? (I had six sash windows in my house, and I don't think there were two the same size).

[docholliday93]

at is a TUIT...

I've not found the ones I've seen to be very convincing - the thick meeting rails and the obviously stuck-on horns tend to be a bit of a give-away. In cidentally not all sash windows have horns - while the ones at the front in my house (occupied by 1891) have single panes and have horns, the ones in the dining room at the back, which was probably the servants hall when buil t, have 6 panes in each sash and no horns. On the other hand, if you absolutely must have UPVC then I guess these are better than the usual hinged versions as replacements for sash windows.

I saw some replacement wood sash windows recently (in a village hall in Nor thumberland) which must have cost a fortune, with a total of 20 double glaz ed units in each pair of sashes...

[RobertL]

we had most of our sash windows restored by a chap with a mobile workshop ( in Cambridge). He didn't have to replace any wood though. We also had one made by a local joiner as an exact replica.

We had problems with building control about the replica one. It seems tha t you can't actually make a replica window that meets modern regs. In the end we did a 'mitigation calculation' and added insulation elsewhere to com pensate.

Take care you don't fall foul of the 'modifying a thermal unit' rules and f ind your refurbished windows get rejected by BC (if they know about them). IIRC you can replace one sash and that's OK but if you replace both then t he refurbished window has to meet modern regs.

"For vertical sash windows, replacement of one rot damaged sash is consider ed as a repair, and not within the scope of building regulations. However, if both sashes are removed and replaced with a new window system within the existing frame, this would be building work to which building regulations would apply. "

says

for example.

Robert

[docholliday93]

(in Cambridge). He didn't have to replace any wood though. We also had on e made by a local joiner as an exact replica.

hat you can't actually make a replica window that meets modern regs. In th e end we did a 'mitigation calculation' and added insulation elsewhere to c ompensate.

There do seem to be a number of companies making windows that are reasonabl y similar in appearance and (they claim) also meet the current standards, b ut clearly an exact replica would not have double glazing and so would only be acceptable to building control if you're in a conservation area or a li sted building

find your refurbished windows get rejected by BC (if they know about them) . IIRC you can replace one sash and that's OK but if you replace both then the refurbished window has to meet modern regs.

ered as a repair, and not within the scope of building regulations. However , if both sashes are removed and replaced with a new window system within t he existing frame, this would be building work to which building regulation s would apply. "

So what happens if you do one sash - and then decide next year that the oth er one needs replacing...

[Nightjar]

Unless you have a seriously weird builder, the window cavities are determined by brick sizes. They would normally have been built to nominal widths of 2, 3, 4 or 5.5 brick lengths, or multiples of these, if two or more windows were to be mounted side by side. Heights would be in multiples of 6" high, starting at a nominal 2'6" high and probably not going above 6ft. As some of those combinations would not make very good sash windows, there are perhaps 20 sizes of window that can be considered usual for a Victorian house.

Colin Bignell

[Geoff Pearson]

I had an 1897 lower sash copied and installed by Fountainbridge Windows in Edinburgh - cost £200. I have 13 sash windows - so 26 sashes. Anything in wood can be copied and replaced - not much in upvc can. My house is stone - so not brick sizes to guide - I think every window is slightly different.

[Jim K]

oh & have you actually looked then? kindly confirm they are sized to fit into the "normal" recessed mason's openings that old houses have (something to do with great fire of London ISTR and trad. sash weight sash boxes)....

e.g. their online catalogue talks about frame size and mason's openings needing to be *bigger* to allow fitting - sounds wrong way around in my experience - how about yours?

yet the regional variations are numerous as you will know...

another somewhat obvious difference is the mortar bed depth of old vs new brickwork but I expect you will tell me Jeld Wen have allowed for all those variations too...

Jim K

[Jim K]

as in "made up on site"?

Jim K

[Jim K]

that is a TUIT...

ng >rails and the obviously stuck-on horns tend to be a bit of a give-away.

"thick" measured how? you mean allowing for DG units? "run through" horns a re available (had you bothered to look).

t in >my house (occupied by 1891) have single panes and have horns, the one s in the >dining room at the back, which was probably the servants hall whe n built, have >6 panes in each sash and no horns.

horns are optional (had you bothered to look), as is 6 over 6 fretwork (NOT just internal glazing bars in the DG units - to save you the bother of loo king)

e better than the usual hinged versions as replacements for sash windows.

otooh if you *want* to go up 3 storeys and repair & repaint faithful copies every few years so they don;t rot again, fine ;>)

orthumberland) which must have cost a fortune, with a total of 20 double gl azed units in each pair of sashes...

how "thick" were they then?

Jim K

[Timothy Murphy]

We had about 20 sash windows restored by an English company, The Original Box Sash Window Co, about 12 years ago. They had a branch in Dublin then, but I don't think they do now.

They were incredibly expensive - about ?1000 per window - but we live in a listed building and so half the cost was met by our local authority. About 4 of the windows were completely replaced (using the old glass). The others were repaired.

The windows are definitely all different sizes. The building is stone. We were not allowed to get double glazing, although the company said it would look exactly the same.

[Nightjar]

...

I can confirm that they fit the two houses I am interested in. If they don't fit one you are interested in, I suspect it will still be cheaper to order theirs made to measure than to have windows made up by a local joiner.

If you find their catalogue confusing, I suggest speaking to their technical support, who IME are very helpful.

Colin Bignell

[Jim K]

have you bought some then?

ah you don't understand it either then despite referencing it earlier ;>))

Jim K