Rebating hinges?

[T i m]

Hi All,

What's the std deal re fitting hinges in a traditional wooden door re rebating the hinges into the door and frame please?

I saw a door being fitted by a carpenter (mate) and he was using some fairly substantial chrome hinges that caused the door to be moved away from the hinge side quite a bit. He had to 'relieve' the edge on the opposite side to get the door to close properly, something it may have done already had the hinges been recessed below the surface (but he suggested that wasn't a done thing)?

So the result was quite a gap tween door and frame on the hinge side and a smaller (all be it neat) gap on t'other?

Any thoughts please (outside of using thinner hinges that is) ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[Martin Bonner]

You rebate the hinges into both the frame and the door. I've never seen it done any other way!

Not done if you're an idle

Get a better carpenter?

[T i m]

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly Martin. He did indeed rebate the hinges but only so they were flush with the surface of the door / frame not *below* it, which would have made the effective thickness of the hinge therefore gap less?

All the best ..

T i m

[Chris Bacon]

He does not appear to be a "carpenter" at all. Are you saying he merely screwed (or nailed) the hinges to the door/jamb edge, rather than "rebating" them?

Sober up and speakee English, tomorrow is another day.

[The Medway Handyman]

The accepted wisdom is that the hinges should be recessed flush with the surface of the frame and door. Recessing below the surface could cause a problem with the door closing. The gap should be even on both sides of the door, but that doesn't sound as though it was possible.

How 'substantial were these hinges?

[jim_in_sussex]

Martin Bonner wrote: snip////

agreed in principle, but.....

one idea behind rebating is to prevent the hinge sliding down the door or frame.

OTOH at lot of (most?) general purpose hinges sold today appear to be mostly presssed out of sheet steel and are not properly designed for rebating. My guess is that lies at the root of your carpenter's problems.

Traditional stout hinges for a door are very difficult to find in 2006. Even the ones on sale now which look thick and strong are just a pale imitation of what was available 40 years ago.

A properly designed traditional hinge has a gap between its leaves which is there to provide a margin when the door is closed to stop binding. The leaves will be 3 to 5 mm thick, and were not flat plates, but had a wedge shaped profile - thickest nearest the hinge pin - thinner on the outside. I treid to locate a seller (or maker) last year without success: best I could find had flat leaves.

Pound stores and run of the mill hardware stores only have the flimsy pressed steel versions. Look in more up market specialist ironmongery and door firms. Magnet had quite stout hinges last time I wanted some.

HTH

[Chris Bacon]

What "effective thickness"? Did he fit hinges intended for some odd application? Somthing's not right here, in the fitting or the explanation, or whatnot. Your punctuation does not help, either - not that this is intended as an affront - just a request for proper information.

[Harry Bloomfield]

It happens that The Medway Handyman formulated :

Most of the door hinges I have seen sit with the two sides flat or almost flat to each other. Recessing them to be level with the side of the door and frame should provide a correct gap - a small gap which should be the same all the way around the door.

[Chris Bacon]

If you know of anywhere that I can get 3" or 4" cast iron hinges for doors as fitted during much of the last century, then I shall be very grateful to hear from you.

[Guy King]

The message from T i m contains these words:

That's what we call "A bodge". The door should fit nicely in the hole, the hinges should be let into the door and the frame such that the pin of the hinge is midline twixt both.

[Frank Erskine]

On Tue, 02 May 2006 21:25:46 GMT, "The Medway Handyman" had this to say:

ISTR that the hinges used on telephone kiosk doors in the 60s were solid brass 5" and had about ¼" thick leaves. After all, they had to support a glazed teak door and were subject to a lot of use and misuse.

I should imagine that such a hinge purchased retail today would cost at least 20 quid!

[Guy King]

The message from Chris Bacon contains these words:

Salvage firm?

[Chris Bacon]

Not that I know - they weren't generally salvaged. A few turn up in skips, but that seems to be about it. Maybe the Chinese could help....

[T i m]

So my explaination wasn't complete gibberish then Dave? ;-)

The hinges were very heavy chrome jobbies (as mentioned in my op), the leaves probably being ~ 3mm thick (this was on a heavy laminated chipboard door).

He used a router in a metal jig to make the rebate to the depth of the hinge leaf then squared off with a chisel so I think the leaves were of the same thickness all over (not tapered as per one thought) as they looked flush with the surface over their entire surface on both door and frame.

Just the gap left must have been ~4mm and looked a lot .. maybe only so because I was looking for it so to speak? But the door had been hand made to give a nice neat (close) fit and it seemed a shame to have to plane stuff off one side to make it fit 'at all' when rebating the hinges further may have allowed it to fit 'as was' .

(The carpenter had constructed the sud wall, fitted the frame and specked the door size himself but I didn't see if he had measured it to see if it was on spec. I feel that he could have stood the door in the frame and it would have fitted ok).

All the best ..

T i m

[T i m]

And that's exactly how they were fitted Guy, so the 'gap' was simply that provided by the hinges and that was correct (just looked a bit big to me hence the question re recessing further ..).

All the best ..

T i m

[Stuart]

If both leaves were recessed in to (a) the door and (b) the frame how come the gap on the hinge side is too big .??

Stuart

[Guy King]

The message from T i m contains these words:

I reckon I'd have gone and got some more suitable hinges.

[The Medway Handyman]

That doesn't seem over thick to me - not that I've ever measured the thickness myself.

Router & jig sounds like he knew what he was doing. Jim mentioned a wedge profile, but I've never come across that only flat plates.

Again accepted wisdom is a 2mm clearance each side. Hinges really have to be recessed flush.

If we are now talking a new frame in a new stud wall and a new hand made door, I'd say a 'maybe' 4mm gap one side and 2mm the other was a bloody good job. The tolerances for building work & carpentry aren't that fine IMO.

If it looks neat & tidy I'd be happy with it myself. Maybe you have a 'picky' gene?

Dave

[John Rumm]

You would expect the surfaces of the hinge plates to be set so as to be flush with the door and frame...

with the hinge plates flush it ought to leave the traditional "penny joint" on the hinge side. It is common practice to plane a bevel onto the sides of the door however to ease closing, and to make sure the screws in the hinges do not bind.

Taking off the architrave on the latch side and altering the wedges that position the door lining would be a way to get a more even joint as well. (although that does depend on the lining being traditionally wedged to set the door to frame joint size).

[meow2222]

The accepted / expected way is to rebate the hinges, but they dont _need_ to be rebated in reality. Tis optional. I'm surprised budget new builds arent all non-rebated as a matter of course now, its an obvious way to save some time. I've seen plenty of door carpentry thats more basic than is the norm nowadays, and really it all works fine.

must have been a weak wall

NT