Quarter-turn ceramic taps - Are H & C the same?

[Ian Jackson]

Apart from the direction of turn, and the red and blue colour coding (of the top, and of the bottom rubber seal), is there any difference?

I'm asking this because my wife and I both prefer the taps to turn the opposite way to the 'standard', which is, when off, with the handles jutting forwards, across the sink bowl. We much prefer the handles to be parked folded pointing outwards ().

I did have the taps arranged this way, but, on two occasions, the hot tap developed a leak (and another peculiar problem, too long to explain). The first time it happened (after it had been in service for three years), I 'cured' it by soaking the insert in Kilrok K for a couple of hours (as there were signs of lime scale deposits in the valve). However, after a year, the problem happened again, so I've replaced the hot and, for good measure, the cold inserts - and, this time, in their correct positions.

However, although it's over two weeks since I fixed the taps, we still can't get used to the taps turning the 'correct' way, But before changing things, I thought I'd ask whether I'm simply going to find that the hot tap (fitted with cold insert) is likely again to have a premature problems (and, possibly, vice versa). I really can't see any obvious mechanical or material differences. I must add that I live in an area of unbelievably hard water, which does tend to wreck anything associated with plumbing. Any advice?

[Tim Watts]

No difference AFAIK. I did the same - rotated the handles and swapped the caps to give the desired effect.

I love 1/4 turn taps - you can see at a glance if they are off and people (like me) don't turn them off to blacksmith's arm strength just to be sure. and the kids don't leave them dripping (they might leave them on - but if they do turn them off, they do it properly).

[Ronald Raygun]

Trouble is that if they're half on, and you've forgotten which way they go, you may end up getting soaked when trying to turn them off.

[Roger Mills]

I think the innards are the same - so it doesn't matter, you can swap them if you like.

If you're worried, you can also swap the way in which an individual cartridge works by taking it apart and re-assembling it with the innards in different positions, to suit.

[Ian Jackson]

Thanks for the confirmation. I just wondered if there was some subtle difference - like the different pressure and temperature ratings for the inlet hoses for washing machines.

[Ian Jackson]

I've already had that problem! Last year, we had a small extension / utility room added to the rear of the kitchen, with its own additional sink. At this sink, the taps turn in the original direction. A few steps away, at the kitchen sink, until a couple of weeks ago, the taps turned in the opposite direction. I was always turning the utility room taps in the wrong direction, and spraying water everywhere. The dilemma now is whether to leave all four taps alone (all now turning in the original direction), or to swap them all to what we want.

[Ian Jackson]

I already been running them swapped - for over three years, plus the one additional year - before the hot tap (the cold insert) started dripping (plus the other weird problem, which I won't complicate matters with).

Mechanically, the inserts look like mirror-images of each other, but I just wondered if there was some non-obvious subtle difference between them.

I can't recall seeing any obvious way to take the inserts themselves apart. That seems like doing things the 'hard way'.

One of the main problems with this sort of tap is that there a fair variety of styles of insert. Needless to say, it is an essential design feature that any one type has to be incompatible with all the others! Even though I did my best to ensure that the replacements I chose were identical to the originals, they weren't quite. The splined spindles were about 1.5mm too long, but, fortunately, easily trimmed to the correct length.

[Mike Barnes]

Ian Jackson :

Same here. I don't understand the "standard" - it makes no sense to me, on any level. Anyway I swapped the inserts round in our downstairs loo about a day after the plumber left. They've been fine. The handles are separate from the mechanism so there's nothing on the insert itself to indicate hot or cold.

[Ian Jackson]

In message , Mike Barnes writes

Well, I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who's a bit odd, and out-of-step with society!

To me, the obvious way is to have the tap handles parked in the folded-back position.

But if this is a 'user option', why do the manufactures colour code the sealing washer (at the bottom end of the inserts) red and blue? Is the way the taps turn a buildings standard, like normally having the hot tap on the left, and the cold on the right? Or is it simply to prevent mistakes during production, or to prevent you from buying the 'wrong one' if you need to fit a replacement?

[Ronald Raygun]

Doesn't it? Then what would?

Of course you may feel that they ought to operate in the same way as ordinary taps (clockwise off for both hot and cold), but if you accept that (for aesthetic reasons) they need to operate clockwise on for one and clockwise off for the other, then the choice is between (a) pushing both handles away from you for on, and (b) pulling towards you for on.

It seems to me that of those two options the former is the more natural, by association with, say, a slider volume control on audio equipment, or rheostat theatre lighting controls.

The problem may be that you don't think in terms of away/towards, but are mentally stuck in clockwise/anticlockwise terms. The cold tap is the one you tend to operate much more often than the hot, and if that is on the right hand side (as it usually is), turning it off clockwise would correspond to option (b).

[Mike Barnes]

What the OP said makes sense and is exactly what I did in our downstairs loo.

No, I don't.

It makes sense to me to have the lever aligned with the flow when "on", and across the direction of flow when "off". Many lever valves work that way, and for good reason.

[Ronald Raygun]

That makes sense, I agree, but more so for valves used only rarely, like gas stopcocks, or connector arrangements for washing machines etc. For valves operated frequently, ergonomic considerations may override this principle.

I think I've misunderstood the description of the OP's setup, because my memory is tainted with the tap arrangement I used to have once.

On mine, the axis of rotation of the knobs was horizontal (and indeed the two knobs were co-axial). Taking the cold (right hand) knob, you would rotate it clockwise for on, which meant pushing the top side of the knob away from you. In other words, the lever would be horizontal facing towards you for off, and would be vertical for fully on, though conceivably you could pull the knob off the valve stem and put it back on 90 degrees out, so that the lever would be vertical for off and horizontal pointing away from you for on.

On re-reading the OP, it seems his knobs rotate in a vertical axis, with the levers *always* horizontal, and the original arrangement has the levers pointing towards him for off and away from wach other for on (i.e. cold clockwise off, hot clockwise on). And he wants them pointing away from each other for off. Not clear whether he wants them pointing towards or away from him when on. If the latter, could he not just mount the whole assembly rotated round by 180 degrees, and re-colour the buttons? That way he wouldn't need to delve into the valve innards.

[Ian Jackson]

It's a normal mixer tap (the kind with a swivelling 'spout' in the centre).

If you turn the whole tap around, you do make the hot tap cold, and the cold tap hot, but you don't change the direction of rotation of the handles.

And you are unlikely ever to want the handles pointing away from you (towards the wall) - which they would (when off) if the virgin tap was rotated. And if you re-positioned the handles, you would be back where you started!

No, I think you've misinterpreted my original question, which was "Other than turning in opposite directions, is there any real difference between the hot and cold inserts", ie "Is there any reason why the cold insert should not be used for the hot water, and vice versa?"

[Mike Barnes]

1000 words...

fitted the levers pointed towards the user when off.

[Ronald Raygun]

Yes, but you can swap the hose connections underneath to correct that.

Yes you do, that was the whole point of my suggestion! See below.

I guess it depends on how much room there is behind the sink for the handles, but I don't think it would bother me. Anyway, that's why I suggested rotating the knobs.

If what the OP wants is for the handles to be off when pointing away from each other, and on when pointing towards him, then my suggestion delivers exactly that.

No you wouldn't. As originally configured, you have cold on the right, hot on the left, handles towards you for off, handles away from each other for on. This means that the cold handle is clockwise off and the hot handle is clockwise on. They're mirror images of each other and therefore different.

If you turn the whole thing around, then the cold handle is still clockwise off, but is now on the left. It's now off when the handle points away from you, but if you re-position the handle, it does exactly what's wanted.

I didn't misunderstand the question (which has in any case been answered by others), I just looked for the question behind the question, and addressed that! :-)

I am making assumptions which I'm not sure are warranted, namely that it's an easier job to turn the thing around [*], re-plumb the hose or pipe connections [*], and shift the knobs, than it is to take the valves themselves apart and reconfigure their innards. The two tasks labelled [*] of course are null tasks if one thinks this through before plumbing it in the "wrong" way to start with.

Another key assumption is that the spout has full 360 degree swivelling freedom. It wouldn't do if it has a stop.

[Mike Barnes]

Ronald Raygun :

That wasn't the case here. I swapped the innards round without breaking into a sweat and without my knees touching the floor. I've also replaced a worn-out quarter-turn valve in the kitchen tap in about two minutes using nothing more difficult than a pair of pliers. The construction of the taps is really pretty simple.

[Ian Jackson]

But that's not something that anyone would 'want' to do!

Ah, yes. You're absolutely right on that. My mistake. [I don't know why I said that!!]

Yes indeed. As rotating the whole assembly transposes the taps, it also transposes the hot and cold inserts. If you now reposition the handles, you get what I want.

Actually, this is exactly what I did when I first installed the mixer tap, fours years ago. It has the added advantage of moving the position of the grub-screw (which retains the swivelling spout) from the back (where you can't get a screwdriver to it) to the front (where you can) - although, when replacing the O-ring (as you have to do every year or two), you have to take care not to lose the grubscrew down the plughole!

As I confessed, I was wrong about that.

If the tap is already installed, far the easiest thing to do is simply to transpose the inserts and, when you re-fit the handles, with the taps 'off' position, put them pointing left and right, away from each other. It's then only a question of whether, because of some subtle difference between the hot and cold inserts (which are now controlling the 'wrong' type of water), you should really have done it! But from what has been said, it seems that there shouldn't be a problem.

[A26sqdnRock]

replying to Ian Jackson, A26sqdnRock wrote: Ever looked at hospital taps. They are on when the handles are in the same direction as the spout, and OFF when at right angles to the spout, so you are not necessarily wrong having them the way you like them, in fact you are actually correct in the way you like them. In short , ON - handles pointing with the flow. Off - handles pointing across the flow - common sense and not a slave to aesthetic looks.