In article , Roger wrote: [specifically about V. vulpes - but generally about all animals except H. sapiens]
As arguably is much of yours - including, as an example, the acquisition of grammar. Foxes are social animals and much of their behaviour is based on learning rather than instinct alone. Much like yours.
Distinguish between 'hunting foxes' and 'Fox-hunting'. As I've already said, if you didn't pick up the distinction then I apologise for not making it clearer.
Not at all. Thats how I feel about someone whose attitudes are so far removed from the reality of life, that sooner or later, this is precisely what will happen to them.
nan nah ne nah. Those aren't MY views. Those are animal rights sort of views.
From wikipedia.
Using scenthounds to track prey dates back to Assyrian, Babylonian and ancient Egyptian times, and is known as venery. In England, hunting with hounds was popular before the Romans arrived, using the Agassaei breed. The Romans brought their Castorian and Fulpine hound breeds, along with importing the brown hare (the mountain hare is native) and additional species of deer as quarry. Wild boar was also hunted. The Norman hunting traditions were added when William the Conqueror arrived, along with the Gascon and Talbot hounds; indeed, the traditional hunting cry 'tally ho' derives from the Norman French equivalent of 'il est haut' (he is up); ie. the stag has started running. By 1340 the four beasts of venery were the hare, the hart, the wolf and the wild boar. The five beasts of the chase were the buck, the doe, the fox, the marten and the roe.
The earliest known attempt to hunt a fox with hounds was in Norfolk, England, in 1534, where farmers began chasing down foxes with their dogs as pest control. By the end of the seventeenth century many organised packs were hunting both hare and fox, and during the eighteenth century packs specifically for fox hunting were appearing. The passing of the Enclosure Acts from 1760 to 1840 had made hunting deer much more difficult in many areas of the country, as that requires great areas of open land. Also, the new fences made jumping the obstacles separating the fields part of the hunting tradition. With the onset of the Industrial Revolution, people began to move out of the country and into towns and cities to find work. Roads, rail and canals split the hunting country, but also made hunting accessible to more people. Shotguns were improved during the nineteenth century and game shooting became more popular. To protect the pheasants for the shooters, gamekeepers culled the foxes almost to extirpation in popular areas, which caused the huntsmen to improve their coverts. Finally the Game Laws were relaxed in
1831 and later abolished, which meant anyone could obtain a permit to take rabbits, hares and gamebirds.Although viewed as a typically traditional rural British activity, hunting with hounds takes place all over the world. Hunts in the United States, Canada, Ireland and India are legacies of the British Empire to some extent, although some claim that the first pack devoted to hunting only fox was located in the United States. In 2004 the Masters of Foxhounds Association of America included 170 registered packs in the US and Canada, and there are many additional farmer (non-recognised) packs.
Many other Greek- and Roman-influenced countries have their own long tradition of hunting with hounds. France and Italy for example, have thriving fox hunts. In Switzerland and Germany, where fox hunting was once popular, the activity has been outlawed, although Germany continues to allow deer to be driven by dogs to guns. In some countries drag hunting is also popular, either instead of or in addition to quarry hunting, in which a scented bag is dragged over a pre-determined course. Bloodhounds are used in some areas to hunt the "clean boot", a human runner, for sport.
When fox hunting in the United States, the fox is rarely caught. In fact, much effort goes into training the foxes so that they do not get caught. In the late summer of the year, the hunt take the young hounds out "cubbing". They teach the puppies to hunt while they are teaching the young foxes to give chase. In Britain "cubbing" consists of training the young hounds in hunting by firstly surrounding a covert and then 'drawing' it with the puppies, allowing them to hunt and kill within the surrounded wood. Once the season proper starts (usually from early November), the idea is to drive the fox from the covert and chase it over open countryside.
Focus, but the surly teenagers won't sell it to you.
My ( and probably your) back garden(s).
Regards Capitol
The message from John Cartmell contains these words:
Weasel words. Fox-hunting - per Collins "a sport in which hunters follow a pack of hounds in pursuit a fox" has undoubtedly been around for more than 2 centuries and that is precisely what you denied and ISTM are still denying behind the smokescreen above.
The message from Andy Hall contains these words:
Surely on this ng the proper advice is to diy. Get an antler pick (to be authentic) and visit Grimes Graves.
The message from John Cartmell contains these words:
It is a moot point how much is learnt and how much is instinct but foxes do not reason.
Woof! Snarl! Growl!
Why don't you two lovely boys read "Handley Cross" and then come back.
You obviously haven't seen my back garden! 8 feet of builder's rubble on top of many more feet of Mersey floodplain.
The moot has met and more has been decided than you appreciate. And foxes do reason - no question. They learn and they make decisions.
That's right, Roger, stick to your view that humans are special and unique, put here by God, who also put a few million other species here for us to eat and play with. You are closer to the chimpanzee than you think.
The message from Bob Martin contains these words:
You couldn't be more wrong. There is a very high probability that your notions above reflect your view of the world much more closely than they do mine.
The message from John Cartmell contains these words:
Learnt responses don't require thinking and decisions at a foxes level are driven by learnt response and instinct, not rational thought. You have to stretch the meaning of words such as 'thinking' and 'rational thought' well past breaking point to get them to apply to foxes. Decisions such as putting man on the vulpine list of vermin are impossible for foxes as is even thinking about such a concept.
Really? Well, I'm an atheist, believe in evolution and think that the differences between the species are far less than generally thought.
Unlike the lawyer for the Countryside Alliance who famously said "we don't know if foxes feel pain, and until we do we should assume that they don't." Yes, she really said that.
You have no evidence for anything you have written here. Much depends on definitions and some people would say that humans operate on the same level you describe. What you need to show is a clear difference in more than just degree between H. sapiens and other animals. You cannot do so.
They are more than capable of being stretched. Evidence is available that proves quite conclusively that decisions made by humans are no such thing - but are simply justifications made after the event. Whether you accept that or not there is one thing that is abundantly clear - and that's that your simplistic distinction between H. sapiens and the other animals has no foundation in fact.
Come back to me when you can explain just how a fox can think. Most of us find it hard enough to appreciate the differences between humans.
And we know that they do - at least as certainly as we know that other humans feel pain.
The message from Bob Martin contains these words:
Yes really. The picture you tried to paint of me would fit the majority of the population much closer so the chances were that you fitted in there too.
snap
snap
We differ very little on that as well but I seem to interpret that in a different way.
Did she really? (Sounds more like Tony Banks on fishing). But then you can't trust anything a lawyer says without taking a second opinion. They are after all the only lawful profession where those held in greatest regard are those who can engineer the greatest miscarriages of justice.
Incidentally a scientist interviewed on the box recently said something to the effect that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps and 40% with bananas and he had no affinity for bananas.
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