Part P conudrum.....

[Bob Martin]

I was thinking of the fox's point of view ;-) Anyway, valuable to whom? Obviously, the life of a human is more valuable to another human. The fox population is tiny and fairly static, but the human population is horrendously large and growing at an unsustainable rate. From a detached and objective point of view a human life is not worth much.

My garden has grey squirrels, foxes and the occasional badger, and I feel my life is enriched by them.

The few that do survive will be back in the stone age. Have you seen the Horizon programme on global dimming?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Is that why people are doing strange things like banning foxhunting? A global reduction in IQ?

Seems plausible ;-)

[The Natural Philosopher]

Nothing is any justification for anything.

You are alive. That means you live of other peoples efforts and other creatures deaths.

Sometimes those deaths are not pleasant.

Fox hunting at least is a tribute to the bloody fox...he gets a chase, and a quick end, or escapes.

Rather than a lingering death of failing organs and starvation.

I hope you too suffer a long and lingering death, where, as you silently scream for something - even a pack of hounds - to come along and break your shabby neck, you are nonetheless surrounded by 'caring and concerned humanitarians' who keep you alive long enough to fully experience the total agony of some chronic wasting disease.

I feel that would be a just and fitting tribute to your views.

[Bob Martin]

So that's how you feel about anyone who's views differ from your own? I don't think I'll take any future notice of your opinions.

[Bob Martin]

Sounds as if you are the one who is rabid. It's easy to spot the hunt supporters in any discussion about fox-hunting, they are the ones with the nasty, vicious, extreme views.

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

Do you or do you not deny that prior to what you claim is your original mailing you told Andy that fox hunting had not been around for centuries?

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

And you claim not to "attribute human thoughts and emotions to foxes". You're as nutty as a fuit cake.

[Roger]

The message from Bob Martin contains these words:

Foxes don't have a POV.

Not to members of other species perhaps but other species don't have the mental equipment to formulate a POV.

Maybe, but if you had red squirrels and a garden full of free range chickens would you see it differently?

I tend to watch programs like Horizon but I can't call it to mind. Was it recent, or perhaps one of those programs the BBC is using as bait to persuade the reluctant to switch to digital?

Anyway stone age seems a bit extreme. Working with iron is not exactly rocket science and there will be plenty of scrap around following any catastrophic disaster.

[John Cartmell]

Packs of dogs can do terrible injuries - especially to children.

There's nothing you could do for the fox, the pack need to be broken up and sent to good homes (wherever that might be possible), the child taken to hospital, and the idiots who allowed rabies into the country - and those (ir)responsible for packs of dogs - need to be thrown into prison.

[John Cartmell]

Is this some strange belief system of yours - or can you give references to a peer-reviewed research article that gave you such extra-ordinary insight?

[Snip]

From the last/current series. It got a re-run this week.

Back on topic. Perhaps you would like to suggest where we get enough skilled people capable even of stone-age technology.

[John Cartmell]

I do deny that I made a posting prior to my original posting! I haven't changed my claim. If you read that original as my saying that no-one hunted foxes at all then I apologise for not making it sufficiently clear. I do (still) claim that what we now recognise as Fox Hunting - a large number of Hunts set up as Fox Hunts and having regular meets - is an invention of the

19th century.

[Andy Hall]

The reality is that some date back many centuries (e.g. Garth 1770, Oakley 1800, Cambridgeshire late 18th century, Grafton 1735, ) while others are as recent as the last few years.

many of them, there are records predating 1800 indicating that there were packs of hounds and that hunting took place on the land. In that sense, it is a tradition spanning several centuries.

Clearly a lot were set up in the early 19th century in their present form, but that does not detract from the long history of fox hunting with hounds in the UK.

I can't think of any sporting activity that has remained unchanged from inception to the present day, but nobody argues that rugby or cricket don't have long traditions.

[John Cartmell]

Rugby and Cricket are pushing 150 years old - even though a history of them may very well mention games going back hundreds of years.

[Capitol]

UKDIY of course.

Regards Capitol

[Capitol]

Is not fox hunting an extension of boar hunting as commonly occurred in Epping forest and else where, for millenia?

So boar hunting is a no no also?

When do we get dIMM hunting?

Regards Capitol

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

The strange belief system is yours and so should the proof be.

You mean the item on UKTV History at 4pm on monday? No wonder I didn't see it.

From the ranks of this very newsgroup if it was necessary atm. Most of us (Dribble excepted) have a good many practical skills but I think you have the difficulty the wrong way round. With iron to hand ISTM that working with iron might actually be easier than working with stone. However a return to the stone age is also intrinsically unlikely as the artifacts of the post stone age world (including a good many mechanical tools) would not all disappear overnight unless the planet was totally distroyed in which case there really would be no one left.

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

"BTW - you're misleading yourself. Centuries? Fox-hunting? No"

That looks like pretty positive evidence to me.

[John Cartmell]

So any advice on which shed to get supplies of decent flint from ...?

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

Hunting on horseback goes back a millennium or more but wild boar (among other quarry) have not been available for many a long year (at least not until very recently).

[Roger]

The message from Andy Hall contains these words:

For many of them, there are records predating 1800 indicating that

I wouldn't have thought an otherwise obscure Cumbrian farmer (John Peel) would have taken to it in a big way if it hadn't already been a country pursuit in the North of England.