OT: They all admit they were wrong eventually.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

[James Harris]

LOL! Cummings apparently laments the British government not taking enough advantage of the opportunities Brexit provides and says "in some possible branches of the future leaving will be an error". I agree. Power has been handed back to our politicians. It's up to them now. They can make things better or worse.

At any rate, Remainers change the sense of what was said into "leaving may be an error" as if the whole idea was bad and he was having second thoughts about Brexit. Yet that's not what Cummings was saying.

Another try at misleading the public. It follows on from _many_ half truths and even outright lies from the Remain side during the referendum and since.

[Brian Gaff]

The thingis the Eu has become so big and ciumbersone nobody really understands which bits benefit us and which don't any more. That was why both sides had muddled campaigns and why we still have the feeling that nobody knows what the heck is going on. Brian

[Harry Bloomfield]

Brian Gaff used his keyboard to write :

..and if you don't fully understand it, where your contribution is going and you are getting in return - always best not to have any involvment.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Ultimately my main reason for Brexit is that the EU is already simply too big and too centralised to be an effective instrument of governance.

Worse, by binding the whole continent into a so called integrated society, if it makes a bad mistake the whole continet goes down.

Nations reflect geography. People in Tuscany do not live like people in Finland. The same rules are not appropriate.

What the EU sdhould have been, is a tallking shop for all the heads to state of Europe to discuss mutually beneficial ptrojects. Not co-opted by big business to protect their ineterests and profits in an unholy bargain with political idealists hell bent on turning Europe in to a neoCommunist state..

[Harry Bloomfield]

[James Harris]

...

Definitely! The EU could have devised a set of schemes that nations were free to opt in to or not, as suited them best. Instead, the EU insists that members hand over power to people the centre who design what they think is best for everyone. It is a straitjacket with a hair shirt inside.

[dennis]

Well the EU does stuff like

making it illegal to make/sell dangerous stuff to member states. stop exploitation of the workers let *you* decide where you want to work

It doesn't decide what benefits a state pays but it does say you have to treat residents the same.

It makes it illegal for a member to charge tariffs on another members goods and or service.

It gives a veto to stop many things that can happen.

We have chucked much of that away for no tangible gains at all.

When the dust settles we will still obey the regulations and have free movement of workers and pay into the EU. We won't have any say or a veto.

Real win that!

[James Harris]

You think we couldn't do that?

For various meanings of "exploitation". Its economic policies have led to mass youth unemployment and unwise levels of emigration.

True, though it also promotes freedom of movement, not just freedom of labour.

True, making states with generous benefits magnets.

While charging high tariffs to nations outside. And thereby weakening its own production.

Every time the EU has asked for more powers the British public have been reassured noisily that there is a veto. Then, quietly, a British PM has given that veto away. Once gone, it's gone. No more veto.

I'm not sure what you mean by tangible. The future is never that.

We'll have to comply with EU regulations for stuff we sell to the EU, sure, just as we have to comply with American regulations for stuff we sell to the USA, and to Japanese regulations for stuff we sell to Japan, etc.

You want a gain? Over the next 15 years 90% of world growth is expected to come from outside Europe. And the EU is always far too slow at opening up new markets. The growth is there for the taking. And we in the UK are, by history and inclination, a trading nation. Leaving the EU won't be easy. They will see to that. But there is a world to be rediscovered. And that's where our future wealth is to come from.

[whisky-dave]

For most this is a logical step we supply fishermans friends to many countries some contries only order particular flavours and not others so that's what we do. Maybe the EU would insist we supply flavours no one wants, wouldn't suprise me.

It might suprise some on here that 2000+ years ago we were supplying tin to Rome this was long before the EEC existed, and for most (excluding admin) there's a thing called supply and demand. If the EU requires that we ship in tonnes we ship in tonnes, If the USA wants us to ship in imperial tons we can do that too.

The EU still uses differnt plugs and sockets compared to the UK (suprised they haven't insisted we change over) just like in the USA. When buyinng a Mac they come with UK plugs, and I'm pretty sure that those that buy idevices all get them with the correct type of plug.

[Tim Streater]

That would be called "not leaving the EU", Den.

The only regs that we would obey would relates to goods we sell there. That's all. The rest of your comment is rubbish.

BTW, there is no single market in services, we are the 2nd largest supplier of services in the world, and only 25% of that goes to the EU.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Very good. Now tell what products etc we currently make that these countries who will produce that 90% growth will want to buy?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Can you provide the source of that? Figures I've seen said about 50%. And the percentage to the EU increasing.

Approx 117 billion overall, and 57 billion with the EU.

[whisky-dave]

If you or anyone are asking for a source surely you should automatically provide your source too.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I wasn't the one making the claim.

However, here's a later one than I quoted from. :-

That shows a similar percentage.

[James Harris]

Goods and services, naturally.

[dennis]

More brexshit, the EU doesn't stop us going out and exploiting these markets. Why do you think we send trade missions to other places like China, India, etc. if the EU is going to do it? The real question is why we don't have more success at selling into these growing markets now and how we are going to improve it more than say Germany or France?

[dennis]

Don't talk drivel, drivel.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Right. So we go through 15 years of drastically falling living standards in the hope that we can sell things to new markets which may not even happen?

Interesting that Brexiteers said 'never listen to experts when it comes to predicting our economy' Except when they find the odd one they agree with.

[James Harris]

You seem to be talking about trade missions which look to increase trade under WTO terms. You need to distinguish them from negotiations to liberalise trade under FTAs.

FTAs will help. So will the government's global engagement programmes. The future's bright. Prepare yourself and your children for wealth like that of Switzerland and other countries outside the EU....