OT: Keyless ignition immobilisation?

Hi all,
I think we had a thread around this a while back but I wasn't sure if this question was asked or how it was concluded (or if it can be).
Basically it's around the question of can a keyless car, once started continue without the key?
Now, I believe this is the case as that's how the device-in-the-middle thefts work but someone has suggested three cars they know of that are keyless all cut off / immobilise once the car <> key are out of range of each other?
Maybe it's user set able but if there is some law / standard that determines how they should all work, could enabling the ability to immobilise in the absence (or failure) of the key make it 'illegal'?
Like what if a key battery went flat (assuming they have one) or the key got thrown out of the window?
Maybe those that 'dock' in the dash can't be removed once the ignition is on and so couldn't suffer the issues mentioned above of if they key is being held by your passenger and you drop them off at the motorway services and then you re-join the motorway without they key?
I understand how they might not let you re-start the car without the key, but not that it caused the car to cut out once started. Or maybe it only allows the car to self immobilise if traveling slowly or stopped or within an initial time etc?
Cheers, T i m
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On 28/07/2018 22:02, T i m wrote:

Can't answer the question, but had a conversation with SIL about this today when he mocked me (gently) for still having a car with a metal key, rather than a start/stop button. Given the ability of villains to spoof the wireless connection, it seems to me that having a physical key is a bit like having 2FA. OK, the lock can always be smashed, but you sort of have two lines of protection against theft, one electronic and one physical.
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On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:53:38 +0100, newshound

Yup.
I'm guessing loads of drivers must have asked for these keyless systems for manufacturers to implement them?
Or they are cheaper than what they replaced? (as they certainly don't see more secure). ;-(
Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 09:27:51 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Jim K

Erm, I'm not sure I see the link between how you initially authenticate legitimate access to the vehicle and how it manages the engine after that? (interesting thought though).
I mean, keyless makes sense on the doors / boot (freeing your hands etc) but no further.
For me, someone not familiar with such things it's all just a PITA ... not being sure I've locked the vehicle, trying the handle and it opens again? Or because the key isn't in a fixed position *in the vehicle*, the passenger can go off with it or it can fall down between the seats or even left somewhere outside the vehicle (once started) as you drive off?
You could *think* it's in your pocket as the car has started and then your passenger goes to work from the station with both the house and car keys in *their* pocket, something that could never happen when they were all hanging neatly from the steering column. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On 29/07/2018 10:29, T i m wrote:

But it doesn't free your hands. You still have to pull the handle to open the door. I suppose you could have it open an electrically operated boot.
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On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:21:24 +0100, "dennis@home"

It does, or does so more than also holding the key and pressing the right button?

Yeahbut you can still do that with your finger tips, even when carrying a bag?

Or use a wave of the foot. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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wrote:

No you don’t with the best of them.

And that’s what the best of them do.
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wrote:

Nup.

Nup.

Unlikely.

They can be when done properly.
And much more convenient to be able to walk up to the car with your hands full and have it unlock the doors and just have to press a start button to start the engine.
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Not so sure. Many of these toys are marketing led. A glossy ad on TV and lots then think 'wouldn't that be kewl'
My pet hate is rain sensing wipers. Had them on 4 cars now - and none has ever worked properly. But then given you can adjust the sensitivity (in theory) says they ain't automatic. ;-)
--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Sunday, 29 July 2018 12:27:31 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Sure makes a change from having a simple on-off switch. No speed options, no pause, no auto-parking. And that was luxury compared to some I've seen.
NT
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wrote:

no
some bright spark in the development department thought that they would be a good selling point
and TBH it has been. Must be some bloody lazy people about
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wrote: <snip> >> I'm guessing loads of drivers must have asked for these keyless

Great.

I'm not sure that some actually realise they aren't in their lounge (by the way they drive / park).
Cheers, T i m
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Marketing. Do something different which sounds sexy and which you can sell as more advanced. The competition are then obliged to follow. Think low-profile tyres and gas filled shockers.
--
bert

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Does SIL have keyless entry to his house too? If not, how is having a car and house key on the same ring inconvenient?
--
*Money isn?t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSum3om2oYI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSYdgGMBxbE

I don't know what substances the car designers were on when they came up with this problem for a solution.
likewise, even with non-keyless systems the conversation must have been: "I know, how about a key pickpockets can steal, go out to the parking-lot and press the button to see which cars lights flash and steal the car, and we won't make the flashing lights an option either"
--

Graham.
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wrote:
<snip> >>I understand how they might not let you re-start the car without the

Thanks for those and they answer an extra question (you can seem to even restart the car without the fob being present under certain circumstances) but I note all the examples I've seen so far are on 'foreign <g> cars and I wondered if our rules were different?

Me neither but it must have been some good gear. ;-)

I feel sorry for the garage test drivers and mechanics of the future that will have to have all those vehicle authorisation barcodes burnt onto their skin or all the chips implanted under it.
"Where's John as he's the only one with the Bugatti implant and we need to test drive it ... " ;-(
Cheers, T i m
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On 28/07/18 22:02, T i m wrote:

Lexus fob has NFC in addition to battery. Should the battery die, the car can be started by holding the fob close to the start button. Once started, the fob need not be in the car. Pressing the start button whilst moving at speed will not shut down the engine, which is a very good thing in the case of my car as the steering wheel moves to enable easy entrance/exit.
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On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:10:58 +0100, Richard

<snip> >Lexus fob has NFC in addition to battery. Should the battery die, the

I saw that mentioned on one of the videos linked elsewhere (it said to put the fob 'near one of the switches').

So, this is on a UK spec vehicle?

Ok.

Ok.
So, it looks like on some vehicles you can run and even restart (handy if you still it etc) a keyless entry car without the key being present but I wonder if any of this behaviour is (especially user) programmable?
It makes sense from a safety POV to not ally a failed or missing key to disable a vehicle once moving (especially at speed) but it doesn't make sense that you can drive off once started and leave the key behind from a security POV (and we know that is the case, certainly for some vehicles).
I was really looking to see if there was any Construction and Use or legislation that defined how these systems should work and specifically in the UK.
Cheers, T i m
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On 29/07/18 09:47, T i m wrote:

Yes.

Once the engine has been stopped, it will not start without the key being present. The probability of driving away without the key is very slim, and I'm guessing one would not make the same mistake twice. The only 'programmable' behaviour I know of is the settings of seat, steering wheel and wing mirror positions for the two fobs in our possesion. Wife uses car and seat moves, steering wheel moves and wing mirrors move to settings for her. I use the car, everything moves to my preferences.

The Lexus way seems to be that they give the owner the opportunity to use the vehicle when the fob battery has died. It comes up with a low key battery warning when the battery is near EOL.

I don't know. No doubt you've searched and come up empty, as have I. The car was bought used and came with whatever goodies were there, which seem to be top spec.

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On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 10:29:48 +0100, Richard

That doesn't seem to be the case according to the Youtube links offered elsewhere?

Not according to respondents here who have experienced such? You think you have the key in your pocket but it's in your passengers pocket, they get out and jump on a train, you dive off and can't restart the car once stopped and (and you have opened the door / whatever) or get in your house?

No, possibly not, but there is even less chance of that happening if the keys are hanging out of the steering column?

'Personalities'.

Or I use my wife's key and get my legs broken and crushed up against the steering wheel! ;-(

That makes sense., but low isn't the same as died is it?

Well I found some bits but was not for UK born systems and I wasn't sure they would apply here.

Ok and thanks.
Cheers, T i m
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