OT: Keyless ignition immobilisation?

Can't answer the question, but had a conversation with SIL about this today when he mocked me (gently) for still having a car with a metal key, rather than a start/stop button. Given the ability of villains to spoof the wireless connection, it seems to me that having a physical key is a bit like having 2FA. OK, the lock can always be smashed, but you sort of have two lines of protection against theft, one electronic and one physical.

I don't know what substances the car designers were on when they came up with this problem for a solution.

likewise, even with non-keyless systems the conversation must have been: "I know, how about a key pickpockets can steal, go out to the parking-lot and press the button to see which cars lights flash and steal the car, and we won't make the flashing lights an option either"

Lexus fob has NFC in addition to battery. Should the battery die, the car can be started by holding the fob close to the start button. Once started, the fob need not be in the car. Pressing the start button whilst moving at speed will not shut down the engine, which is a very good thing in the case of my car as the steering wheel moves to enable easy entrance/exit.

Well assuming you are not a prospective thief, It should be easy to test what happens on the car in practice with the co-operation of a friend surely? Brian

dont call him shirley ....

Yup.

I'm guessing loads of drivers must have asked for these keyless systems for manufacturers to implement them?

Or they are cheaper than what they replaced? (as they certainly don't see more secure). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

I can only speak for mine but it will only start the car if there is a valid key in the cabin but once that has happened you can do two interesting things:

Walk away locking the car again with the engine running and no key inside - useful for warming it up to defrost on a cold morning.

But if you ever set off without your keys after starting the car you are completely stuffed when it comes to returning home or the first time the magic stop the engine when the car is in neutral gets activated.

This can happen if your spouse is stood at the open car door when you try to start the engine and have their keys with them but you don't.

If it shut off once the key was out of range then you would not get far. However, most I have seen only go to immobilise when next stopped.

I had a car that once self immobilised spontaneously on a roundabout with a total electrical failure. It was not a pleasant experience.

Thanks for those and they answer an extra question (you can seem to even restart the car without the fob being present under certain circumstances) but I note all the examples I've seen so far are on 'foreign cars and I wondered if our rules were different?

Me neither but it must have been some good gear. ;-)

I feel sorry for the garage test drivers and mechanics of the future that will have to have all those vehicle authorisation barcodes burnt onto their skin or all the chips implanted under it.

"Where's John as he's the only one with the Bugatti implant and we need to test drive it ... " ;-(

Cheers, T i m

I saw that mentioned on one of the videos linked elsewhere (it said to put the fob 'near one of the switches').

So, this is on a UK spec vehicle?

Ok.

So, it looks like on some vehicles you can run and even restart (handy if you still it etc) a keyless entry car without the key being present but I wonder if any of this behaviour is (especially user) programmable?

It makes sense from a safety POV to not ally a failed or missing key to disable a vehicle once moving (especially at speed) but it doesn't make sense that you can drive off once started and leave the key behind from a security POV (and we know that is the case, certainly for some vehicles).

I was really looking to see if there was any Construction and Use or legislation that defined how these systems should work and specifically in the UK.

Cheers, T i m

Erm, I'm not sure I see the link between how you initially authenticate legitimate access to the vehicle and how it manages the engine after that? (interesting thought though).

I mean, keyless makes sense on the doors / boot (freeing your hands etc) but no further.

For me, someone not familiar with such things it's all just a PITA ... not being sure I've locked the vehicle, trying the handle and it opens again? Or because the key isn't in a fixed position *in the vehicle*, the passenger can go off with it or it can fall down between the seats or even left somewhere outside the vehicle (once started) as you drive off?

You could *think* it's in your pocket as the car has started and then your passenger goes to work from the station with both the house and car keys in *their* pocket, something that could never happen when they were all hanging neatly from the steering column. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Yes.

Once the engine has been stopped, it will not start without the key being present. The probability of driving away without the key is very slim, and I'm guessing one would not make the same mistake twice. The only 'programmable' behaviour I know of is the settings of seat, steering wheel and wing mirror positions for the two fobs in our possesion. Wife uses car and seat moves, steering wheel moves and wing mirrors move to settings for her. I use the car, everything moves to my preferences.

The Lexus way seems to be that they give the owner the opportunity to use the vehicle when the fob battery has died. It comes up with a low key battery warning when the battery is near EOL.

I don't know. No doubt you've searched and come up empty, as have I. The car was bought used and came with whatever goodies were there, which seem to be top spec.

As long as it's not on a public highway presumably?

Understood (that bit makes sense, from a security POV at least).

Ah, another 'flaw' that doesn't actually make the system better than what it replaced? ;-)

That seems to be the understanding on the mate I mentioned.

Agreed ... but I was wondering if it was covered by some legislation and that could be different if different parts of the world?

No, I bet it wasn't and it's that sort of thing I think the 'rules' (?) are supposed to protect against?

'Of course' you can have 'a breakdown' / 'vehicle fault' that could do anything at any time (even on a motorway at 70 mph) but that's not the same thing as knowingly designing a security system that doesn't 'fail safe'.

When the connections between the ECU and the immobiliser on our car started to become intermittent it would cause the car not to start when it was warm (it would turn over but not fire up again, fine when hot or cold). However, it never cut out once started, even though it was obvious it was running though the 'warm' phase as you drove.

Cheers, T i m

That doesn't seem to be the case according to the Youtube links offered elsewhere?

Not according to respondents here who have experienced such? You think you have the key in your pocket but it's in your passengers pocket, they get out and jump on a train, you dive off and can't restart the car once stopped and (and you have opened the door / whatever) or get in your house?

No, possibly not, but there is even less chance of that happening if the keys are hanging out of the steering column?

'Personalities'.

Or I use my wife's key and get my legs broken and crushed up against the steering wheel! ;-(

That makes sense., but low isn't the same as died is it?

Well I found some bits but was not for UK born systems and I wasn't sure they would apply here.

Ok and thanks.

Cheers, T i m

You obviously can't have watched the first link in Graham's post:

I can only speak for myself and, as yet, I haven't been in that situation.

That's the good thing about keyless. No keys dangling from the steering column.

The wife breaking your legs for using her key is a tad harsh.

There are different things attached to our fobs, so the chance of mixing them up is zero.

What part of "use the vehicle when the fob battery has died" are you finding trouble with?

Does SIL have keyless entry to his house too? If not, how is having a car and house key on the same ring inconvenient?

Be a pretty crappy car that could do that while on the move...

I was writing for the benefit of T i m ;-)

Not so sure. Many of these toys are marketing led. A glossy ad on TV and lots then think 'wouldn't that be kewl'

My pet hate is rain sensing wipers. Had them on 4 cars now - and none has ever worked properly. But then given you can adjust the sensitivity (in theory) says they ain't automatic. ;-)