Anyone know what the procedure is for disputing a payment made by credit card when the goods turn out to be defective?
Background is that SWMBO paid for glasses and optician put wrong lenses in, insisted they were right even after she told them she couldn't see her hand in front of her face at the fitting, but after two weeks of bumping into furniture admitted they'd made them to entirely the wrong prescription.
She wants a refund and to go elsewhere. Trading Standards say that a material defect is grounds for rejection and refund, optician wants to have another go and insists that packing her off home with instructions to get used to them was reasonable - even though the lenses were entirely wrong and she'd told them she couldn't see sweet FA.
Trading Standards say it would be easier to just claim it on the card than bother with Small Claims Court.
But how does the card company decide who's right? Are they on the customer's side? Will they really admit joint liability without a fight? Can the retailer appeal?
Thanks for any advice from anyone who's been there, done it, got the t- shirt.
Oh, and the person who did the fitting has since "left the company".
Why would you even leave the shop with obviously incorrect specs? Surely she tried them on before paying? If nothing else frames often need slight adjustment.
Where I get mine from - and I suspect that it's probably the case with a number of high street opticians now - you have your eye test, you pick your frames, and pay. A few days later, they call you to say that they're ready for collection. One up from a till erk then does the 'fitting', which is based on chinagraph pencil marks on the lenses, put there by the technician who ground them.
My last pair didn't seem to work too well when I tried them at pickup time, but like the OP, I was told that I needed to get used to them as the prescription was quite a bit different from the previous ones. A day later, I went back to the opticians, and demanded to see the original head honcho who did the test. The person who had fitted them, had done a bum job, and the (complex) varifocal lenses were not sitting at the correct height. A few tweaks from this guy, whom I have always trusted implicitly as he totally understands my need for close and mid distance together when working with the electronic equipment that I repair, put them totally right. So although mine 'seemed' to be wrong, they actually weren't. Just incorrectly fitted.
Yeah, as I said in my original post, she tried them on, Dave. She told them she couldn't see her hand in front of her face. She told them she couldn't see to walk across the room. She told them she didn't trust herself to function in them. They were adamant that there was nothing wrong with them and that they just needed getting used to over a two week period. They supposedly checked the prescription and the lenses --- although obviously not properly. Nothing would convince them.
What is she supposed to do at that stage? Start a fist fight or take a deep breath and walk out of the shop?
When she phoned two weeks later, they said they'd added a zero to the prescription. Now they say they transposed the digits and the axis is wrong.
They've admitted they're wrong. But at the time, despite being told she couldn't see through them, they swore blind they were right.
Thing is Mike, no matter how good we think we are at what we do for a living, we actually all make mistakes from time to time, from doctors making wrong diagnoses, to builders doing something in a particular way, that when it fails, with hindsight, then seems the wrong way to have gone about the job. I guess that the optician in question is probably as well qualified as any other, and provides sight remedies for many people without issue. An unfortunate set of circumstances led to your wife's wrongly-made prescription which, for whatever reason, ended in a messy dispute. I can kind of see where the optician might have been coming from with his contention that all was well. When I first went for varifocals, mine was very careful to explain to me that I might have trouble getting used to them, and that many people never do, and eventually have to go back to conventional single focus or split bi's. Presumably, when this happens, they have the customer coming back in complaining that there is something wrong with their new glasses. I expect that they too feel agrieved when they have to be told that it's them, not the prescription.
It's a shame that it all went wrong, and I can quite see where your wife might now have a trust issue with the optician, or his shop's admin systems, but if he has genuinely offered to put things right, then it's probably fair to let him have a go just this once. It might be a good opportunity to negotiate for a better set of frames for nothing, or a second pair for free, or maybe photochromic lenses or prescription sunglasses for free. If at the end of letting him try to put things right, you are still not satisfied with the outcome, then I guess that's the time to be getting your money back with absolute justification. Hope it all works out for you without getting too pissy.
You might be lucky - I took my spectackles to Boots so that a screw holding the lens could be toghtened (I can do it but it had been loosening on a regular basis - they had supplied the frames and lenses). Five minutes later they were brought to me with a broken lens 'it had fallen out'. A new pair of lenses was ordered immediately with a two week delivery. When I had managed to walk home (I was on foot and was asked if I needed help - I have a complex 8 diopter varifocal prescription) and found a spare pair I insisted on (and got) an immediate test which confirmed that the spare pair were legal for driving. I later spoke to the practice manager whoclaimed that they were generous in replacing the lenses(?) and that they had 'given me' an test (my prescription entitles me to a free test). He refused to discuss compensation but said thatif I were to order another pair he 'would see what he could do'. I haven't been back and will seriously consider using them again even thouugh it was the 'only uch incident in
OMG, she sounds like she is really thick! Why would she accept glasses with the wrong lenses and then wear them for TWO weeks. I do hope she doesn't drive a car as a lot of women seem to lack in the intelligence department. I handed mine back immediately and said they were the wrong lenses or they had done something wrong at the eye test. The shop did another eye test and found that the so-called qualified optician who struggled to speak English fluently had put the wrong numbers down. I was given £40 off and had the correct lenses fitted. Thanks Specsavers!
Probably caused by realising she doesn't have the same silly designer ones as others, or some idiot told her she can get them £1 cheaper in another shop.
The lenses were NOT defective, the wrong ones were supplied. The lenses supplied, even though incorrect for their intended use, were not defective. If you are easily confused as the person wearing the glasses seems to be, you will end up paying a fortune in legal fees on a case you will never win. All the optician will do is present the lens and give a demo of how effective it is for correcting to the quoted specification. The lens is NOT defective because the incorrect one was supplied, that alone does not make the actul lens defective. It still works as it should, it's just the wrong one. Trading Standards are fairly powerless when it comes to disputes like this. They are only good for going around markets taking copied DVDs. For real consumer disputes they are a total waste of time.
That is perfectly reasonable, they have acepted it is the wrong lens and agreed to supply the correct one. Your credit card company will refuse to help you at this point as you are both being silly.
A lot of opticians say this because people getting glasses are often shocked at how bad their sight was. They get used to poor vision and once the glasses are on things look a bit strange if the prescription is strong. I very much doubt the optician fitted her glasses upon collection, so the prson giving her that advice was probably unqualified to do so.
They should have gone and tested the lenses, then compared them to the eye test details and realised there was an error. Specsavers have done it a few times for me when they tried using "the nearest" lens instead of the correct one to save money! They do that a lot to customers.
Which Trading Standards Office did you speak to as they have given you incorrect consumer advice. Either you have lied and not spoken to them or they are careless and need retraining. So please name the office. You will not win any claim unless you can prove that the lens supplied was defective. It wasn't, the wrong one was supplied. It was the idiot taking two weeks to decide that she couldn't see through them that will go against you. This is not a reasonable time, if glasses are wrong people know immediately and most have the common sense to do something straight away. The credit card company will not help you as the shop has offered to fix the mistake they made. So the shop is not refusing to deal with the problem, there is no legal issue here. I suspect you have already been told to clear off by the credit card company and you're just trying your luck here.
They look at FACTS. Glases were supplied with the wrong lenses or one wrong lens. A complaint was made after 2 weeks and the shop realised their mistake and offered to put it right. They have not refused to supply the goods and you will have a very expensive job proving any lens was defective. To keep the incorrectly supplied one will mean paying for it, then for various tests, plus legal fees and expenses.
A lot of the time yes they are, but you need to have a case. You don't! If the shop had said "no we are not replacing the lenses" or "we refuse to deal with your complaint" then there might be somethign the credit card company can do. They will not get involved when a shop has supplied the wrong goods, admitted the mistake and offered to correct it.
No they will not in this case as there is NO case for the retailer to answer. The shop admitted the mistake and offered to put it right so that is the end of it.
Can the retailer appeal?
They will not need to as there is NO case against them. There never will be so grow up and give up. The retailer will simply say they supplied glasses and the customer took two weeks to fully decide she couldn't see using them as she thought would be correct, then inspected the glasses and realised the wrong lens was supplied and offered to put it right immediately. The customer refused and started talking about legal action and getting a credit card company involved as it seems she no longer wants the chosen glasses. No longer wanting something after purchase means she will still need to pay.
I have, a few Specsaver Tshirts. They made glasse up incorrectly a few times so I went back and told them. The glasses were put right with no further problems. I never took two weeks to make my mind up though. I was told on one occasion "you will get used to them", said I wouldn't as they were incorrect and left them to be sorted out.
That doesn't matter, you need to establish whether the details on the prescription are incorrect or whether the lenses are incorrect. Fitting a pair of glasses just means sticking them on and maybe bending the arms slightly with that heater they all use to mae the glasses more comfortable.
I would give up now! You will lose your fight as you have refused to give the retailer the opportunity to correct the problem. So you are being unresonable and I suspect there is another motive to the attempted claim.
Yeah, as I said in my original post, she tried them on, Dave. She told them she couldn't see her hand in front of her face. She told them she couldn't see to walk across the room. She told them she didn't trust herself to function in them. They were adamant that there was nothing wrong with them and that they just needed getting used to over a two week period. They supposedly checked the prescription and the lenses --- although obviously not properly. Nothing would convince them.
What is she supposed to do at that stage? Start a fist fight or take a deep breath and walk out of the shop?
When she phoned two weeks later, they said they'd added a zero to the prescription. Now they say they transposed the digits and the axis is wrong.
They've admitted they're wrong. But at the time, despite being told she couldn't see through them, they swore blind they were right.
I would say start a fight, say "I am unable to use those glasses as they have the wrong lenses fitted, or the eye test was incorrect and measurements taken do not accurately reflect my sight test". Then leave them and say "Give me a call when they are corrected, or if you do not want to, I will have a refund now please". A lot of opticians and people performing sight tests are NOT qualified and there is a bit of a scam going on in opticians now, especially the high street ones. They buy in certain types of lenses and in various strengths. There is a financial interest in making sure your eye test will produce a value that means a standard lens can be fitted. If they have to get a custom made one it decreases profit. The problem with the axis and strngth, especially in people with astigmatism is a big one. The optician will try to use a different axis value hoping the strength will not need to be higher. It always fails as it is the strength that needs increasing. If the axis has changed then something is pushing on the eye and should be checked.
They took payment when the original order was placed.
This is starting to sound more and more like Specsavers to me. The payment bit, description of what happened, the repeated problems with axis and strength measurements... It's well known !
James, is there a problem with asking for advice before doing something so as to be prepared?
She complained at the time. She tried them briefly each morning to show willing because they insisted they were right. Then she reverted to her old glasses. I think she was being very reasonable, giving their "professional" opinion more credit than it obvioulsy deserved, and not assuming that she knew best.
No, it was caused by them not listening to her and the consequent loss of trust in their competence.
They are defective because having tested her eyes, they then made the lenses to a different prescription.
No I haven't lied, James.
She complained at the time.
No, a complaint was made on the day. And they did not offer to put it right.
...which is exactly what they said on the day.
No, she told them at the time. And they did not need to inspect them two weeks later. When she phoned them, then confirmed form their own paperwork that they'd got it wrong.
Thanks for calling me a liar and an idiot, James. I'll refrain from doing the same to you even though you've told me I'm unreasonable.
Whilst most of what you say is correct - if a little forcefully and unkindly put - you are wrong that 'fitting' glasses is always a case of just bending the frames to make them a more comfortable fit. Whilst this may be true for a 'simple' single area constant lens, it certainly isn't for a complex multi-area lens such as a varifocal. With these lenses, it is essential that they sit in front of the eye in the correct place, which is why they come from the grinding lab with the centre point and area limits chinagraphed on them. As I said in an earlier post, I had a pair wrongly fitted by the white coat erk, and they were almost impossible to use. I went back the next day and saw the (fully qualified) optician who did the eye test in the first place. He re-examined the lenses and re-marked them accordingly. Once they were back on my face, he declared that they were sitting at completely the wrong height, so I was looking through the wrong part of the lenses 'at rest'. He then adjusted the bridge height, overall bend, and arm positions to line his marks up with the correct eye positions. Once this had been done, they were perfect, and did everything I needed of them, as had previous pairs that they had supplied.
I have a degree of sympathy with Mike's wife. Many of us were brought up to trust 'professional' people like doctors and opticians, and no matter what she thought about the glasses being wrong at the time she collected them, arguing with the optician may well have flown in the face of what she would have considered to be 'correct' behaviour on her part. Also, many people are just not good at handling confrontational situations. Two weeks probably was too long to leave it, but if that's what they had told her, and she had trust in that - even if not total - then she only did what was asked of her.
However, I do agree, as I said before, that as the optician has admitted his mistake, he should at least be given the opportunity to put it right. The fact that the person who was behind all of this has now left the business, maybe tells us all we need to know about why the problem occured. As they say "you just can't get the staff" and well I know that ... :-\
You sit opposite the dispenser and look into her eyes, very pleasurable if she is of the female variety, but if you are taller than she is, she is likely to mark the height of your pupils too low down on the planar (dummy) lenses due to parallax.
That is what happened to me last time.
Next time I will adopt a different strategy. I will look at distant objects with my normal head posture and if I am not looking through the pen dots I will insist the dispenser tries again.
There is an optical dispenser called R D S who posts here.
Setting aside what happened in the shop the goods are plainly defective as they do not match the requirement measured. The optician has admitted they have made a mistake and offered to correct it.
Legally, she can reject the goods and demand a refund. If the optician refuses to give one her recourse is to the County Court.
If she claims from the Credit Card company she would need to make it clear it was a claim under S75 of the Consumer Credit Act not the CC companies clawback scheme otherwise they may well say the optician has offered a replacement and therefore no refund will be made. Even if she does mention S75 the CC company will almost certainly treat it initially as a clawback and possibly reject the claim. It could also take weeks or months before it is dealt with.
The simplest solution is to allow the optician to replace the lenses (it was a simple error of writing not a mistake in measurement and there is no real reason to believe they will get it wrong next time) and go elsewhere in future. If she allows the optician to try to correct the mistake it does not affect her right to reject the goods if the replacements are not adequate as the rejection clock stops while attempts at corrective action take place.
It might indeed look silly. But when partner had varifocals prescribed (her first ever glasses), difficulties she had in adjusting were put into the 'you'll get used to it' category. Never having worn any before it was something she wanted to believe. She didn't in fact ever get used to them (she *couldn't* due to other illness). But at that time she was unable to a) be sure in herself that they would never work for her; b) prove that to anyone else; c) have the required strength/ability to argue her point. Makes it kind of difficult.
(To be fair, the opticians did accept them back - but I am sure it ended up costing us more than it should.)
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