Euro Electrics

[John Rumm]

That's OK, we don't do politically correct in this ng...

(other than to say bollocks to it that is!)

[Peter Parry]

Safety of what?

[Mike]

Oh most definitely Whether UK, Sweden or Germany is the best one can argue about ad infinitum (as we have done), but some of the wiring around the rest of Europe is truly abysmal, even in places you would expect to be at least okay. But one of the very worst I've seen was a place in Portugal ten miles outside Lisbon where the supply and a 50 way untwisted phone cable were lashed together and looped from tree to tree. A piece of 30A choccy block was used to feed each to the house then off it went along the trees to the next one. I was looking at it because they wanted to install ADSL to create 'telecottages' which were all the rage back then. I was surprised they even got telephony and didn't have to use Morse code or something :-)

[Mike]

I'll try it tomorrow. Thanks.

[Mike]

One arrangement is two stores, one heated from the heat pump (or solar panels) and then this feeds the second store where it is boosted to the required temp with an immersion heater. But usually this is to optimise the hot water and the heating comes off the lower temp one - i.e. underfloor heating

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[Mike]

Since the only people who will stock on such plugs will likely be able to wire them, this is unlikely.

Why not talk to your MEP ? If he/she's a UKIP I imagine they'll listen to you. But even to one of them I suggest you stop making silly rants like the above and try to present a structured argument.

[Peter Parry]

This still doesn't explain why millions of pounds and a few peoples lives should be sacrificed for nothing other than petty minded bureaucratic tidiness. If "member states" have a problem it is for them to resolve.

What - no Visa?

[Mike]

As I've tried to say several times - it isn't me that considers this. I am pointing out what the EU proposal of the early/mid 90s consisted off as far as I understood it whilst I was working in Brussels on other matters.

As for your comment - how could you have a single light switch control several bulbs if they are on different feeds ? But there would be an MCB per light switch (pair of light switches in 2 way circuits) which to my mind is one MCB per light circuit.

As for the bulb connector - totally agree. I don't know which is worse but none of them inspire me with confidence. Why not suggest to the IEE that they work with the IEC on a better connector - that would help the whole world.

[Mike]

When did you last find a taxi with a credit card machine ?

[Stefek Zaba]

I doubt he does. He seems perfectly convinced that heat doesn't travel if the insulation is 'good enough', and no amount of saying 'the thermal gradient's steeper but far from vertical!' is likely to penetrate.

Oh well, let's hope any house wiring he does is 'supercompliant' rather than to his own invention...

Stefek

[Stefek Zaba]

dennis@home wrote, referring to diversity:

One last time - I promise, no more from me in this thread after this. In a non-faulty ring, there are *two* conductors in parallel supplying each load. Each one individually is rated at between 21 and 26A depending the thermal insulation it finds itself in. At the 'very best' point of the ring - the midpoint - that's between 42 and 52A of cable capacity, with a protective device of 32A nominal. The closer you get to one end of the ring, the smaller the contribution of the longer leg. Yes, there's a case where a large point load close to one end of the ring exceeds the nominal cable rating. That's exactly why designers are specifically told to *avoid* creating a ring layout where that's likely (both explicitly, and in the restrictions on unfused spurs). And the case arises rarely in practice, since few rings are so unbalanced.

The floor is yours - enjoy.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Fuse?

No they don't - assuming competent installation. And without this protection devices are pretty useless anyway - on any circuit.

[markzoom]

And my point, which you shoddyly missed, was that you wouldn't know there had been shoddy workmanship on a broken-ring main until it caught fire. Conversly, on a spur some sockets wouldn't be working.

Ah ok, so a ring main which, undetectably, wasn't a ring any more is fine, by your dubious standards. The reason for it's breaking may have zilch to do with the workmanship of the electrician.

[bigcat]

Perhaps you missed the big thread we had on cable ratings and safety margins. Frankly its obvious that those are different things, else cables would be pushed to meltdown in regular use.

I cant be arsed, if you cant grasp even such a simple concept.

NT

[John Rumm]

Get with the program, we have had this discussion before in this thread. You can go find the full answer, but the short one is that a complete break in a conductor splitting a ring into two radials is a far less likely fault than that of a loose screw resulting in a higher resistance connection at a point. This fault can happen in any type of circuit, but is far more dangerous in a radial.

[Owain]

Last week.

But I'm surprised a Maltese taxi driver wouldn't take Euros, even at an appalling exchange rate. Even I'll take Euros if someone wants to give me them - I'm unlikely to spend them myself but can swap them with Europhile friends.

Owain

[Bob Mannix]

Trieste, Italy (as it happens). I think it's a lot more common than you think.

[dennis]

Your comments sound a bit like those of a bridge builder.....

......we know the cables can hold 200% so we will just use some of the safety margins so we can build it cheaper....

it works 99.99% of the time but....... !!!!!

I don't suppose it matters as much in wiring as its only going to be a few fires each year and nobody will dare to blame the electrics anyway.

[dennis]

I thought you understood heat conductance and heat insulation.

Have you got defined limits to how much cable can run in insulation then?

If I have 10m of cable in thick insulation the temperature of the cable in the center is going to be a lot higher than if I have a 300mm length in insulation.

When you overrate cables then what are the limits? Will the cable manufacturer take responsibility when it fries or are you sticking your kneck out?

Supercompliant with what? Safe design practices or the IEE recommendations?

If its my invention it will be at least as safe as the local sparks would do. I certainly won't use 22A cable with a 32A fuse even if it does save me £10.

[dennis]

Yes we all know that copper doesn't work harden and snap off at the twisted joints that electricians make. No all the faults are screws being loose.

I bet none here has ever seen a cable with a break at one of the joints at the back of a plug.