Euro Electrics

[JB]

You can eliminate Denmark for a start.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Why's that? (I've never been there).

Denmark is one of the countries which has some supplies where neither main conductor is near ground potential. Some supplies are 3-phase 230V delta (meaning you get the 230V between phases and there's no 'neutral'). One leg of the delta is grounded (so I suppose you could say 2 of the possible 3 230V supplies have a neutral), but the other 230V supply has neither terminal near ground potential as they'll both be around 132V from ground.

[bigcat]

well those 2 would run on 1A bell wire, long as no condensation on the thermostat connections occurred.

On bell wire! gawd. 1.5kW... maybe 1.1kW. Would have to rely on low duty cycle to avoid fire. 2 or 3 minutes it should just survive. I once wired a stage lighting bank on bell wire, at the age of barely doule figures, and it ran for several minutes before fuzenpoppen wireallmelten funnysmellenburntwhysthat. Somehow it hadnt occurred to me that putting a couiple of kW thru bellwire was a bad idea. I havent forgotten :)

Well, if he used 2 lengths of bell paralleled, one pair for L and one for N it would have worked ok, for scary values of ok.

What Im wondering is what happens with the EHT to mains capacitances in the transformer. The case would have EHT via small capacitances to mains on it. Guess the current must have been low enough.

Reminds me of the caribbean setup where the gnerator feed cables were various cut lengths twisted together and taped over, and the lot dropped in a flooded ditch. Must have wasted fuel.

The ring circuit, plug fusing polarisation and earth is a fudamentally different approach to safety to those used in most of Europe. Thats one of the reasons Britain remains at odds with most of europe on electrical wiring methods and standards.

Europe uses primarily non polarised sockets with unearthed appliances, and unfused plugs relying of distribution board fusing, double insulation and many circuits to avoid nuisance overload trips. This is why they tend to assume our 30A rings are dangerously fused, and that putting 50 sockets on one feed is potentially lethal.

NT

[Andy Hall]

It's very flat and you need to have a gob stopper in your mouth to be able to speak the language.

The mains sockets in many places are similar to the Schuko style in terms of the pin spacings and sizes for the phase connections. However, the earth requires a third male pin in the plug.

As you say, the phase connections are often not referenced to ground.

The unwary use a standard Schuko power cord (e.g. for IT equipment) and this often causes the chassis to float at some entertainingly high voltage relative to ground, albeit not with much poke, fortunately.

On equipment connected via (e.g.) a serial cable, the ground connection is made through the protective ground of the cable, and huge amounts of electrical noise and crap then start causing data errors.

Many years ago, a customer of mine in Copenhagen had reported data errors with a product that simply didn't exhibit them normally. He had also helpfully installed said equipment in the ceiling void above the tiles and complained when he climbed a step ladder, touched the chassis and got a belt.

... and their bacon's too salty...

[Mike]

Yes

No - the proposed new standard socket had an earth pin so it was polarised if you used the correct plug.

Proposal was to move the trips to the room - a mini-CU in each room as I mentioned, thereby cutting down on the km of cable needed.

[Mike]

I was thinking of older houses with about 6 fuses and possibly 1 RCD. All lighting is on one trip, all sockets on another and so on. I agree more modern housing is a bit better but that's a small percentage.

With the system proposed in the 90s, all rooms would have their own RCD so you never take out anything outside the room.

[Mike]

There was a new common design which was the same spacing but was a lot better.

But is used for such - hence the concern.

But really this should be many individual circuits as used in Germany.

That's only fine if you can see the whole ring.

Most German and Scandanavian housing built since the 80s meets it.

Umtil the late 80s, most UK houses had all lighting on one MCD.

But very commonplace and still being installed.

[Peter Parry]

Your friend was obviously a Frenchman. How many electrical fires in the UK are caused by fixed wiring each year? How many deaths are attributable to fires caused by fixed wiring?

What are the comparable figures for France and Germany?

A Frenchman with no knowledge of history, how very unusual.

By another Frenchman no doubt.

Oh good, a consumer unit in every room - how twee.

One for the lights and one for the socket?

How many do?

[Marcus Foreman]

(Snip)

In the area of France where I go, the sockets are set in a 15mm (?) depression. This is designed to stop fingers being in contact with the pins when the plug is inserted. I have not seen insulated types.

Also, the sockets have an earth pin sticking out. This polarises the pins. Even so, the electrician who wired up our place, connected L & N depending upon the direction of the wind blowing at the time ;-) I have had to go round some of them altering the connections so as to make it right for the Fr/UK adaptors.

I understand that in different areas of France there are different 'standard' plugs and sockets (at least two?).

__ Marcus

[Peter Parry]

No - its actually the result of collected data on real fires and deaths.

[dave stanton]

Which of course, and has been pointed out, is now verboten and has been for quite a few years. Lighting circuits have been dual for years. Power circuits not quite so long, in fact my house has one power ring circuit circa 1970's but 2 x light circuits. I don't really agree with your statements about UK circuits being dangerous, especially when you look at the standard of practical wiring in some countries. I don't mean design, I mean implementation by ' electricians' in those countries.

Dave

[Andrew Gabriel]

They are part of the supplier's works in France. However, they are rated at 500mA.

[Owain]

But why install 8 20A circuits just so you can plug a microwave and a toaster anywhere in a kitchen, when one 30A circuit does just as well. If the circumstances are such that a ring circuit is inappropriate then a ring circuit is inappropriate - that doesn't mean that radial circuits are always appropriate.

Owain

[Andrew Gabriel]

The 2-pin 6A (IIRC) connectors have part-insulated pins.

There is no defined polarisation for the French/Belgium socket, even though the plug is not reversible. If you have any double socket outlets or two-way adaptors, you will very likely find they are hardwired the opposite way round.

Some parts of France weren't always in France, but most of France is the connector you are describing.

[Mike]

Comments were from the EU harmonisation committee. I just happen to know one of the EU reps on the committee.

Quality of work is a problem in all fields. But a single set of clear standards applicable in all countries would be a good start to getting improvements.

[Mike]

Tell that to the Germans who still want radials all the way back to the house's mains entry point. The use of radials to each room where another small CU feed short radials was felt to be a good compromise by many and matches commercial building installation practice in many EU countries.

[Mike]

A Scot actually.

[bigcat]

new? The question is whats used now. The french plugs I saw and used were 2 round pins, no E, no polarisation, no cord grip. I gather theyre illegal there now. The main problem was copper whiskers sticking out near the pins, since the pins screwed home onto the wires, with almost no shrouding and just a bit of card to insulate. ISTR paying about 11p for the plugs.

but meaning 10 CUs needed instead of 1... crazy. And with no rings you still need more cable per room. A daft expensive solution to a non problem - just like part p.

NT

[bigcat]

If the Eu harmonisation committee doesnt even understand the british system and why its safe...

illogical

NT

[bigcat]

that doesnt create a convenience problem in 99% of cases, and doesnt create a safety problem in any case. In large houses electricians are quite capable of installing another ring to ensure things stay working reliably. Just another non issue.

any reason? Our system works jus fine, and costs less. So no reason.

what does that mean?

not at all. Are you British Mike?

Only on TT systems where theyre a necessity. In those cases the main RCD is time delayed, with 1 or more further RCDs downline to prevent whole house blackouts.

NT