Boiler advice

Hi,

Sorry, this isn't directly DIY and is probably a little longer than necessary, but I would like to understand how this works before I take the decision on whether to get my boiler repaired or replaced.

I have a Worcester 24i boiler in my house, which is a four bedroom mid-terrace with ten radiators, a bathroom, an en-suite, a kitchen and a laundry room (with sink and washing machine).

Lately the boiler's become unreliable. Sometimes I'll run the hot tap and get nothing but cold water, sometimes the CH wont come on, sometimes when I try to run a bath it'll start hot and then, after a few minutes, the water will run cold. The same thing might happen while I'm doing the washing up and it'll take me a few tries faffing around with the taps and switching the boiler on and off, before I can get the hot water flowing again. I'll look through the peephole and see no fire.

It's a combi boiler, so I assume it should keep heating the water for as long as I require.

A plumber came round earlier today and advised that there were probably three issues: the PCB (relays were chattering as he played with the timer), the clock (clicking noisily as a matter of course and cutting in and out when he pressed on it) and the fan (noisy bearing and possibly not creating sufficient pressure) and that these would cost approx £500+VAT to sort.

He suggested that it wasn't worth the cost of repair as more repairs would be likely to follow down the line due to the age of the boiler, which he put at 7-8 years old.

About 1 year ago, a different plumber visited to rectify another problem: I had complained that the flow of hot water in the upstairs bathroom was too slow. He removed a plastic thing from the boiler which he referred to as the "flow regulator" and this seemed to do the trick.

Today's plumber says that this was illegal insofar as, if the previous plumber were Corgi registered, he would never have made this modification which is against the manufacturer's spec and, therefore illegal and, if he weren't Corgi registered, he shouldn't have touched the boiler in the first place. In removing the plastic flow regulator, my boiler could overheat, catch fire and I would not be insured for any of the damage, because of the illegal removal of the flow-regulator.

His best advise was that the existing boiler isn't sufficient for a house of this size anyway and that removing the flow-regulator was, in effect, a botch to keep me happy, on the cheap. He stated that the boiler delivers 9 litres/minute which isn't enough for a house of this size.

Now I know very little about this sort of stuff and I hate not understanding these things for myself. My unqualified logic would be that the boiler has been big enough for several years and that it should be big enough after the faults have been rectified. But the plumber advises that the flow-regulator removal is proof of the existing boiler's inadequacy - if it had the required capacity, the flow regulator would not have been removed to rectify the slow hot water in the bathroom, in the first place, and having no flow-regulator now is dangerous.

I'd like to add an en-suite shower to the master bedroom soon and would not like to spend on an aging boiler today, only to have to replace it in a few months with a boiler with a greater capacity, in order to accommodate what I hope will include a power-shower and another sink. But I don't want to spend the £1300 quoted for a new boiler+fitting, if I've simply misunderstood the plumber's advise and a repair+service will do the trick.

Please can those of you with experience explain to me whether my concern should be to get the boiler repaired and serviced on the basis that service is required after 7-odd years but the boiler is adequate or whether I should be looking to replace the boiler so as to improve existing hot water service and provide for the future.

Many thanks.

Reply to
JustMe
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Sounds to me like your boiler is knackered, you can pick up good reliable boilers such as the Valliant or better still Worcester Bosch 36i model for around £700 plus installation.

Reply to
Ray

This sounds very odd to me, I'm no expert, but I'll put my tuppence worth in anyway, and hopefully Ed Sirett will be along to put us straight. You only have to be Corgi registered to touch the gas side of the thing, now I assume this flow regulator was in the water side, so in this case he is incorrect about the requirement for Corgi registration. The only purpose I can see for a flow regulator in the water side is if your pressure is high enough that the flow rate through the boiler is larger than it can handle and therefore even on maximum power you don't get an acceptable temperature rise. Removing such a regulator is hardly going to cause the boiler to over heat, in fact increasing the flow rate will help to remove heat more quickly. I'd suggest a different plumber.

Reply to
Cod Roe

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't think that's old.

Mine has done 21 years with only minor problems.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

================================== The price you've been quoted for replacement parts looks a bit high. It's always worth doing a quick 'Google' check (try 'boiler spares') to see what prices are generally available. A quick check suggests that you might be able to get the required bits online for about £200-00p + VAT. A 7 / 8 year old boiler would be regarded by most people as 'nearly new' so repair should be more economical than complete replacement.

I believe that there's a poster to this group who sells reconditioned PCBs so you might a quote here.

Having said this it's possible that the boiler is too small for the size of your house and its hot water requirement, so you might still decide to replace with a bigger boiler, but do it with your eyes open rather than believe the first plumber that comes along.

Cic.

Reply to
Cicero

In message , JustMe writes

It does sound like you have developed several problems over time, but it also sounds like this one is playing a few tricks to make it worse, a boiler replacement is a nice little earner and easier than having to fault find if you're not very competent

The pcb relays chattering when he moved the timer sounds like bad connections to me, although, a 7 year old pcb might well be suffering from bad joints and a knackered fan relay

I would have thought that a 24i would have been sufficient for your requirements as long as you don't need a power shower

I don't see why removing the flow restrictor should be illegal, if it has a filter in it, maybe not a brilliant idea, as crap might get lodged in the secondary heat exchanger

It sounds like you seem able to attract bad fitters

Ring me tomorrow and I'll see if I can find one of my customers who is more reliable in your area, you will also find a much better deal on fan and PCB should you need them

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Reply to
geoff

The faults are described in rather general terms. The clock can be dispensed with and a programmable stat used. The PCB and fan can be replaced IF NEED BE.

I'm not convinced that the fitter has a full grip on the diagnosis.

This is not a Biasi. Worcester boilers should go twice that life (or more).

The flow regulator (presumably on the DHW ) restricts the flow of DHW so as to provided a smaller flow of warmer water than it would without it. Removing it may have increase the flow rate so the boiler worked. The underlying problem may well have been (and may well still be) some problem with the diaphragm or diverter valve.

Over stating the case. The modification may well not be in line with the manuafcaturers recommendations, yet I doubt it's forbidden, indeed it might be needed where the mains pressure is poor. It sounds like the guy was trying to fix a problem by directly treating a symptom.

True, by the book... In general fitters who start "dis"ing othr fitters and their qualifications/status tend, IME, not to be the best themselves.

Over stating the case in the extreme.

The boiler is designed to produce a flow rate of warm/hot water whether this is adequate or not depends on how many simultaneous water draws off are required, number of people in the house, life style, habits, etc.etc.

If it worked OK for you in the past and nothing else has changed then the boiler needs fixing.

But the plumber

Not dangerous, just inconvenient the boielr will tend to produce a larger quantity of cooler water when unrestricted.

A combi boiler may not be the best choice at all for your house. After the boiler has been fixed you might upgrade to a hybrid system with the boiler heating a HW cylinder.

Show the fraudster the door. Find a competent repairer, even Bosch- Worcester themselves.

HTH

Reply to
Ed Sirett

WB do a fixed price repair with up to 3 major parts replaced. After 7 years that should be a worthwhile investment.

Reply to
Stuart Noble

No, I'm not. I just like to keep my house warm, and not spend too much. A couple of spares from Geoff (not in the gas circuit!) and it's been fine.

Since I've found out that in order to get the advertised benefits of a condensing boiler I'd have to upgrade my rads to bring the return flow temp down, I've decided I want to keep it going as long as possible!

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

not true for the vast bulk of the year... the majority of the time the boiler modulation facility will do this for you just fine. On the very coldest days it may need to up the flow temperature to keep you warm enough - but this will only be true if your rads were minimally sized in the first place.

Reply to
John Rumm

At that age I was informed by my boiler's supplier that they hadn't had much call for spares, as it was too new. It's now 14 years old, and there's no way it will be replaced in the forseeable future.

Unless the Worcester 24i is a known 'lemon' it should be good for a lot longer. I think Worcester is a reliable make. If not someone will be along to correct me.

I would get a second opinion from a recommended plumber.

Reply to
<me9

understanding

flow-regulator

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to call Worcester/agent as a couple of bods here have suggested. Wish I'd thought of this in the first place.

Some quotes from the plumber. I didn't post these initially as I didn't want to prejudice perception of his advise by revealing any of his personality.

"Been to an old woman only a few hours ago and she's having a new one fitted cos it just isn't worth it with these old ones" (wasn't sure whether he meant the lady or the boiler).

"You should see some of the stuff these pakis do to their boilers" (no context, no idea but repeated the same after I said "pardon").

and my favourite:

"I know what I'm doing, I've got a letterhead".

He states he's Corgi registered and charged £35 for the callout. He wont be called out again.

Reply to
JustMe

I'd check his registration. He sounds like the sort that pretend to be registered.

Reply to
Ed Sirett

You're clearly not involved in the heating industry then ! Please do try and keep up. ;-)

Andy

Reply to
Andy Cap

Where did he leave his horse? ;-)

M.

Reply to
Mark

Nope. Modern condensing boilers module the burner down to keep the return temperature as low as possible. The rads are designed for -1C outside. Anything above -1C and the system is on part load and the rads are then too big. A modern condensing boiler will take advanatge of this.

With current fuel prices, it makes sense fitting condensing boiler as the payback is quite short.

Downward firing burner heat exchangers don't require cleaning. The condensate washes down.

The complexity is also in non-condensing boilers too.

Only if you buy crap and have it installed incorrectly. Buy an Atmos and have it installed correctly and have Magnaclean filter on it. That will last and last and they just don't go wrong.

Get what you pay for comes to mind.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

So what exactly is the £80 - £120 for ?

No excuse. ;-)

As a matter of interest how much are you talking about for an Atmos boiler then? Whatever the cost, it will FAR outweigh the four thermo-couples and one new cap my boiler has had in over 20 years. After fitting TRVs last year my gas bill is £32 / month and looks as if it will be enough. How much do I have to save to make fitting the Atmos worthwhile ?

Andy

Reply to
Andy Cap

I'd disagree. Modern boilers are probably more variable in the range of qualities that are available and they are more sensitive to poor quality. The best however may well last very well.

They don't make them like they used to - thank God! Having struggled to remove a 200kg 70kW monster this morning my apprentice and I almost fell over laughing at the new boiler with the box that said 43kg 2 man lift!

Reply to
Ed Sirett

Couldn't agree more. The trend to more complex boilers, requiring both more detailed maintenance, without doubt suffering from far more costly failures and ridiculously short lives, TOTALLY outweighs any benefits for the end-user, even if there is a marginal environmental gain, I even suspect that is debatable when total resoruces and time are included

Andy C

Reply to
Andy Cap

My gas bill is about the same as yours, £36 here for about 12000 kWh a year, into a 28-year-old Glowworm Galaxie back-boiler.

To have it replaced might cost £4000 (I couldn't DIY it, not fit enough), which means I'd lose 4000 x 0.05 = £200 a year in interest on the outlay.

The flash new boiler would have to save approaching 50 percent of gas usage to cover this loss; and I've never seen that claimed even by the most ardent proponent of condensing boilers.

But, when you look into it, the figure usually quoted is 'boiler' efficiency, not 'system' efficiency. Add in the overflow radiator, airing-cupboard radiator, cycling just to keep a couple of litres of water hot in case you need it, run the hot water for a shower and it goes cold-hot-cold-hot before steadying down, and I suspect the 'system' efficiency is rather less than claimed, making payback very much longer.

And it won't save the planet either. Earth's climate is controlled through sunspot activity. We haven't found a way to control the sun, so unplugging your mobile phone charger (half page government ad in the Sunday papers last year) or paying big bucks to change your boiler won't help either.

Stick with what you've got.....

Reply to
Terry Fields

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