Boiler advice

Which is precisely why one should show them how, rather than telling them to do so or doing it for them in perpetuity. If a playing field appears to be vertical, then one is on the wrong playing field.

I don't believe in "class" in the conventionally stated way any more than I believe in "society".

However, you are right as regards value of learning. My mother entered teaching as a second career and also took a keen involvement in school especially during the primary years. This did make a big difference I'm sure, as did the small class sizes and several excellent teachers at times when it mattered the most.

I'm glad also that you used the word "learning" rather than "teaching". It's completely right. Showing somebody how to learn is far more effective, rewarding and scalable than teaching them. It used to be the ethos of education after 16 and at universities. It probably still is at universities, but not at "universities".

Reply to
Andy Hall
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Sadly if there isn't parental support, ANY education system will fail.

Reply to
Frank Erskine

Yes and no. Have you ever been a customer of a private school?

There are a whole spectrum of private schools with different cultures.

Even though parents are paying for their childrens' education, out of net income and in addition to paying for what they are not receiving from the public sector, it does not mean that they engaged with the activities of the child and the school.

There isn't a one size fits all, sadly. What does one do with the excluded people?

I agree that we interact. The questions are how, with whom and to what to degree.

I think that it is far more interesting and useful to interact with those around me in closer proximity to our mutual benefit (in whatever) way than to subcontract that to government and "society".

Reply to
Andy Hall

That's just GOT to be wrong, because you couldn't get rising standards. Lots of kids went to grammers after passing the 11+ and did very well, when there was no family history of education. What matters is inspirational teaching ( OK learning ) and there are just too many sub-standard teachers who don't understand the concept of responsibility themselves, let alone set a good example.

How about the school near me who tell parents to get the children in on time, during Ofsted inspections. You couldn't make it up!

Andy

Reply to
Andy Cap

In message , Andy Cap writes

Agreed!

Reply to
Si

No.

All parents though have chosen the culture and are therefore supportive of it. If parents do not want or unable to choose, the the very least we can demand, is tha tthey support the school ethos and are not allowed to undermine it.

You don't exclude them because the stupid parents then pander to them. What you do, is what the Head teacher at one of the most successful primaries in the country does and send them to another local school, where they are accompanied by a teaching assistant every minute of the day. They absolutely hate it and can't wait to get back and behave themselves. It called zereo tolerance and never pandering to parental pressure.

You haven't that luxury I'm afraid. You meet endless strangers who you rely on at every roundabout you cross to protect you. Most items of food you eat have passed through someone else's hands. You and your children, rely on every other individual who crosses your paths, not to assault you and you rely on endless public servants to maintain the infrastructure you require daily. You simply can not isolate yourself from the behaviour and choices of other, so you should have an interest in how they are developed, irrespective of their parentting.

Come on, you know you're not really that heartless.

Reply to
Andy Cap

At that level, that would reasonable. Better would be to address why they don't want to support it.

Kind of like a junior borstal? It's a way I suppose, but should be a last resort.

I'm not relying on them to protect me - not that naive. I am simply having to assume, to a degree that they won't behave completely stupidly, but take care that I can protect myself if they do. However, I am not expecting them to *protect* me - there is no need for that level of interaction.

One can wash it, at least. More seriously, if food is defective, somebody hasn't been doing their job properly and that needs to be identified and action ranging from correction to dismissal to prosecution taken as appropriate.

Not really. It comes back to my first point that one should be able to do as one chooses provided that it doesn't impact the equal right of the next person to do the same. However..... and it's a big however, I am not going to *rely* on them doing so.

On that one, I have very low expectation indeed and where possible and realistic either make my own arrangements or make sure that there is contingency that doesn't require the involvement of the public sector.

I completely agree. It is a matter of degree and appropriateness.

I'm not, but I don't think that "heart" means that people have to be dependent on others rather than taking responsibility for themselves first and foremost. Put simply, if each person can satisfy their personal needs first, before assuming that others will do it for them, one has a far more scalable and effective arrangement.

Reply to
Andy Hall

A child's education is essentially over before they set foot in primary school. Until we understand that we will continue to make a hash of the rest of it

Reply to
Stuart Noble

A degree of truth for sure but also a message of despair.

Most children can be "turned around", if you can capture their imagination. Boys in particular I believe need goals, rather than purely academic teaching. i.e. They need to understand the purpose.

Reply to
Andy Cap

I'm not saying that the parents have to be better educated than their children; but they have to be fully supportive of schools, and should be prepared to tackle themselves much 'social' education of their kids.

Reply to
Frank Erskine

I have heard that before and I think that there is a degree of truth in it.

Conversely, can parents make a difference after 5? Certainly. Can they make up for ground lost before 5? To some degree.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Which takes us full circle. The purpose will be different for different people. Teaching is not the important point. Showing how to learn and why is.

Reply to
Andy Hall

They're born wanting to learn, but it's a full time job showing them how. Parents are being encouraged to work instead if they can earn £1 an hour more than the child minder charges. "Minder", what a horrible term. Sums it up really.

Reply to
Stuart Noble

Maybe, to some degree, but it will always be harder work than if it had been done at the right time. A bodge basically :-)

Reply to
Stuart Noble

Certainly does IME. Whenever I took pre-school son along to activity sessions in local halls I was always surrounded by other children crying out for attention when they saw I was responsive to him as the minders employed to be with them sat and chatted to each other or had their heads buried in magazines.

Reply to
Si

You seem to want to make this a discussion around the terminoly of teaching/learning. My point was that we need to collectively facilitate, those kids that don't get the support at home and I believe that is both possible and desirable for the benefit of us all, collectively. i.e. they become productive and cause less problems. If you believe it best left to individual parents, who are obvioulsy not equipped, probably by earlier poor education, then so be it, but I believe you are wrong. There's not much else to add.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Cap

Ah, the NVQ alumni I expect. I was unfortunate enough to attend a school Halloween party for 5 year olds, and a more depressing spectacle it would be difficult to imagine.

Reply to
Stuart Noble

Andy just can't see that there are limits to Thatcherism, although a brief glance at the great lady's own offspring should give him a clue.

Reply to
Stuart Noble

It's a very important distinction. Learning is scalable. Teaching isn't.

I'm not a believer in collectivism because it makes it too easy to abrogate personal responsibility.

Ultimately it is the parents' responsibility. The issue is how to equip them to shoulder it

Once one goes down the path of collective intervention, the serious question becomes one of who intervenes and under what circumstances. Therein is a very grey and murky area.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Who said anything about Thatcherism?

The discussion was about how people can best be empowered to learn life skills.

Reply to
Andy Hall

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