Council tax and new ways..........

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

Think? You're just spouting total bollocks.

But just for the record 'vast bulk' implies a much greater ratio than two to one even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant your comparisons to be taken on a pupil to pupil ratio.

And as for the the 2/1 ratio if that was the case where did the money go? It certainly didn't all go in teachers salaries and the overheads for most academic subjects were considerably less than for practical subjects.

In my neck of the wood it was the secondary modern that got the new buildings (including science labs) on a greenfield site, the new equipment and the better facilities. And the building vacated (it went on to become a primary school and is now a magistrates court) was on a par with that of the local grammar. The SM taught (among other things) metalwork, woodwork, domestic science (so could have been drivels alma mater) and even seamanship. The ersatz local grammar school taught none of those.

[Doctor Drivel]

Roger, it is clear he is not and you are getting a lacing.

[Mark]

I don't consider education in the same way I do buying baked beans.

So where would the extra money come from?

Take an Infant School, for example. They are restricted to 30 children per class so cannot take more children unless they build more classrooms and employ more teachers. If they do or don't they have little scope for improvements as the additional income would be offset by the increase expenses. For other Schools they could be tempted to increase their class sizes which may not be desirable.

I could imagine the opposite happening in many areas.

I think the National Curriculum has helped improving the standards in poor schools, but it has held back good teaching in good schools. It would be easy to change this to allow good schools to have more freedom.

I think all parents want their money spent on good teachers and facilities. I must admit to knowing little about how private schools are run. For example, how do they appoint their Head Teacher?

I would be in favour of this if I were convinced that the proposals did not adversely affect people on lower incomes.

We obviously disagree on this :-)

Not if their only local state school closes.

That's a crime. I stronly believe that everyone should have access to good education.

The figures don't add up. If there is a fixed amount of money going into state education and this is turned into vouchers. Some of these vouchers will be spent in private schools. This in turn means less money for state schools. There isn't suddenly going to be less children to educate.

Mark.

[Mark]

-- snip --

They can be operated in many different ways. Privatisation has mainly failed. We have had poorly run state industries replaced by poorly run private industries.

Many were poorly run and expensive. However privatisation does not fix this.

Have there been any? The only 'improvements' I have noticed is for the shareholders. Many still provide poor service and value for money.

Mark.

[John Cartmell]

You seem to be forgetting the differences in wages for graduate and non-graduate teachers, the cost of science subjects, an extra 3-4 year school-life, provision of text books, &c.

That was quite certainly exceptional. Was this pre-ROSLA and if so which school & which LEA was responsible?

I was basing my comment on the national (England & Wales) figures. One school probably didn't skew even its LEA figures too much.

[John Cartmell]

It would make more sense to prepare a set guidance documents for what could be taught including basic requirements that must be taught - and fund teaching resources that can be used. The best teachers will always go beyond that if they have the time and aren't restricted. The NC damaged good development by returning the curriculum to a 1960s grammar school curriculum and pushed schools back to the boring old subject divide.

[Roger]

The message from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

That remark as always applies equally to you Drivel. Why don't you get a job? Spending all of every day and half of every night glued to your PC can't be good for you.

[John Cartmell]

NB At my grammar school every boy was loaned text books (plural) for every subject for the whole of the year. The kids in the local sec mod had none.

[Huge]

"Failed" is an odd way of spelling "succeeded". We have a whole series of industries which now pay taxes instead of absorbing them, and lame duck ones which are, thankfully, gone.

OK, there are some failures - the railways being an interesting one, since I would deny that they have been privatised in any meaningful sense.

[John Cartmell]

It's the same from different angles. 'Succeeded' if you are a shareholder raking in lots of profit and 'failed' from customers who see lower services at much higher prices from companies with less happy and worse trained staff.

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

I have no idea whether or not the SM pupils had text books or not but we had to share mostly old and decrepid text books. I remember the SM had a library though which is more than can be said for the Grammar.

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

ISTR that the difference between graduate and non graduate salaries was not very great unlike the gulf that now exists between teachers and classroom assistants and graduate teachers could be found both sides of the fence. AFAIK the pay scales for heads was the same. What made the difference for grammar school heads was that the pay was based on a weighted head count with, IIRC, a factor of 10 between first years and sixth form.

The science lessons I recall wouldn't have troubled the petty cash, let alone the school budget and the SM school must have done science as well otherwise there would have been no point in giving it science labs.

The extra years (very few would have managed 4) that some grammar school pupils enjoyed (if that is the right word) is a red herring. Even before the school leaving age was raised to 16 some pupils stayed on to the end of the 5th year and it was not unknown for them to then transfer to the grammar school. We had one such join our sixth form. He went on to become a teacher and the last I heard he was the head (or possibly deputy head) of a large comprehensive down Bristol way. AFAIK schools were funded on the basis of their school roll, not their potential numbers had their leavers stayed on.

I had no idea what you meant by ROSLA and am puzzled why you would expect me to recognise such an obscure acronym. The circumstances relate to the period of my school days (which was pre-ROSLA). The LEA would have been whichever one covered NE Essex and it also covered the Colchester schools that seem to always get well placed in the league tables these days.

The 2 secondary moderns were the Hill Secondary School which was replaced by The Sir Anthony Deane County Secondary School AKA the SAD school and named after a native of Harwich who was a friend of Pepys and a master ship builder. When the school eventually became the site for the local comprehensive snobbery ruled the day. the SAD name was dumped (can't have ex grammar school staff and pupils tainted by association with a secondary modern) and the school renamed prosaically as the Harwich School. ISTR the SAD school opened in 1956 but I might be a year or so out.

Why would the LEA single out one school for such superior treatment (and the local grammar for such poor treatment)?

The local grammar incidentally was the Harwich County High School. The head at the time I was there thought it would improve his standing if it was renamed Harwich County Grammar and had all the stationary, etc. redone. Got slapped down by the LEA and forced to change back.

[Andy Hall]

Neither do I. It's a much more serious issue. However, we are customers and are paying phenomenal amounts of money for poor state run services. As a customer, I would like much better value for money and I think that it is easily achievable if the government moves out of the delivery aspect.

The money spent in education would be the same (accounting for inflation etc.) as it is today. All that changes is the method of delivery.

No. More children equals more money and the ability to spend on more facilities and staff.

I prefer to see the glass half full than half empty.

Of course. It's called either dumping the national curriculum or having different ones for different types of school.

It depends on the school. Often it is the governers or trustees.

I see no reason why it would.

I said that there didn't have to be geographical boundaries. Also, there can be specialisation in subject areas. As soon as the restrictions imposed by the state are lifted, there are many more possibilities open.

So do I and also one that is suitable for them and such that their potential is maximised. One size fits all doesn;t achieve that.

No. What matters is the total amount going into education and what is available for each child. I've already said that the state could be one delivery vehicle, but it would be better if what are now state schools entered independent trust or grant maintained status, where management is clearly within the school. At that point, the concept of the "state school" becomes irrelevant.

[Andy Hall]

I'd say that BT has been moderately successful in comparison to the GPO.......

I have a choice of numerous electricity and gas suppliers.

etc.

It's true that there needs also to be a change of worth ethic and attitiude. Unless there is also the cold effect of competition, these issues may not be addressed.

I'm pretty happy with the service I get from BT and my utility suppliers.

[Tony Bryer]

In another sense railways are a success, in that rail passenger numbers are IIRC at a 40 or 50 year high and it is this growth against an almost fixed capacity infrastructure that gives rise to some of the problems. On the freight side the American EWS came in and made changes to the business that should have been done years ago, like buying in 250 new locos to replace

1960s old bangers. Go to Clapham Junction and you'll see loads of new passenger stock too. The problems seem to be on the track and signalling side.

[Huge]

Good point, and one that I had overlooked.

IOW, the bits that are still State controlled...

[Joe]

For what seems to be a relatively impartial and accurate summary, have a look at

actually interested could follow some links, few of which seem to be particularly impartial.

Wikipedia is of course a communal data-gathering system and as such comes with no guarantees. But it is, wait for it... D-I-Y.

[Brian Sharrock]

snip

What's puzzling about these two sentences? [ .... obscure acronym. ... pre-ROSLA]?

Must've googled!

[Roger]

The message from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

It does say 'had' rather than have.

Nah, I still use Alta Vista. :-)

[John Cartmell]

[Snip]

This certainly was not typical of the 50s and 60s. Our science block - probably at the top end but not untypical - was bult in the 50s and consisted of two general science laboratories, two physics laboratories, two chemistry laboratories - with two/three biology laboratories built in the 60s. There were also two large lecture theatres and two preparation rooms. Equipment was, in nearly all cases, sufficient for classes of 30+ to work in pairs for all experimental work (exceptions were for one or two items like the 6th form radioactive gas experiment where there were just 2 sets of equipment). If anyone suffered from Tylers "Laboratory Notebook" those were the experiments we did in physics - all of them! ;-(

[Snip]

Many schools made a lot of ROSLA such that you would certainly recognise it. Much school buildng was done to cope with the extra pupils staying on due to ROSLA with the new buildings frequently referred to as "the ROSLA block". At that period the sec mods did get the lion share of funding for building work.

I cannot imagine. It went quite contrary to the national situation.