Connecting polypipe to lead pipe

[Roger Hayter]

Come to think of it, since most of the lead pipe still in use will be underground house supplies it is not surprising that specific MDPE sizes are available.

[Robin]

Then go for it. Or find a plumber who will do it. May be easy with newer solders. All I know is plumbers who gave up when lead free solders had a higher melting point and lacked the "squidgy" stage (see John Rumm's post for proper terminology).

That's a different question from the one you asked before.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of lead pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint, and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done before them.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Not really.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an existing lead pipe.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the lead an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed was a fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the past 40 odd years. ;-)

[Robin]

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then. I'd not blame Roland's contractor for declining to go that route.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 13:20:27 on Sat, 2 May

2020, Andy Burns [e-mail] remarked:

Measuring once around the circumference gives me 75mm, so a diameter of ~23.8mm hence probably 0.918"

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 13:41:44 on Sat, 2 May

2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" [e-mail]> remarked:

I agree about the minima risk, but the consensus here is that it's banned anyway.

[Fredxx]

I asked another poster who made the assertion "Law prohibits 'sweating' lead to copper" a similar question.

It seems you can use lead free solder on lead:

Given the way tin alloys with lead I'm not surprised.

[Andy Burns]

So he knows he needs a 7lb lead connector to whatever size MDPE, the instruction "The fitting can not be over tightened" probably sounds like "challenge accepted" to a plumber :-)

[Fredxx]

Without any evidence it is banned.

If WRAS say you can, I don't have a problem, even if others say you mustn't.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And you know how long the pipe is in the OP's case? Or just don't understand the principle.

Of course not. He will want to make the maximum profit from the job.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It's a tradition of uk.d-i-y to ignore stupid regulations.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail], at 08:19:24 on Thu, 30 Apr 2020, Roland Perry [e-mail]> remarked:

I value all the comments made so far. Here's a photo (now I've started to take apart the kitchen unit with the old stopcock in it).

Points to note:

When buying the house the only visibility of the pipe was above the unit's chipboard floor, about 1cm, which everyone declared to be black polypipe (despite my misgivings).

There's a lead-to-copper connector whose body is almost spherical.

Above that is a copper reducer before the stopcock itself.

The floor is concrete and Marley tiles, and the stopcock needs moving about two feet towards the camera, with the floor in the area below the stopcock eventually being in the open air and level.

My solution so far has been to install a polypipe from roughly where the camera is, to outside where the lead pipe starts heading for the street.

Didn't want to be doing any of this, but as the contractors have fled because of lockdown, I would like to get them up to speed as quickly as possible when they do eventually return.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 16:52:42 on Sat, 2 May

2020, Andy Burns [e-mail] remarked:

"Is impossible to" vs "must not be" ?

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 16:56:06 on Sat, 2 May

2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" [e-mail]> remarked:

It's about 25m to the street.

I'm pretty sure he's quoted[1] in effect a fixed price to the builder; the problem with that is the temptation to scrimp on the consumables.

[1] Ditto the groundworks contractor and electrician. The builder's people just do windows/doors and plastering. Biggest demarcation dispute is plumbing (aka drainage, but now we have this pesky lead supply pipe) that's below floor level (apparently counts as groundworks) vs the rest.

[Fredxx]

Before perpetuating the fallacy it would be a good idea to provide evidence it is illegal.

[Robin]

AIUI it's in the link you provided: para 2(1) of Schedule 2 to the Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999.

The text you quoted states that led free solder is acceptable for repairs "Where damage is restricted to small areas on internal above ground lead pipe" and goes on "For all other types of installation ...".

[Fredxx]

Which doesn't say you can't solder with lead free solder. If you can find anywhere that says I can't solder on a copper pipe onto lead, then you're doing better than me.

Quite, which is the typical reason why you might want to repair or replace a section of lead pipe. There is no legislation saying I can't repair it by replacing a section with copper, of course using lead free solder (for a potable supply).

[Roger Hayter]

I note that reference confirms my supposition that a fresh lead surface leads to increased lead levels in the water. I note that lead free solder may be permitted, but I look forwarded to hearing from anyone who has successfully made a wiped joint with it.

[Roger Hayter]

How are you planning to bury the MDPE under the floor so that it is at least 2' deep where it passes through the wall? Doesn't this involve digging up the kitchen floor? Is there no way you can extend copper in place of the existing stopcock and box it in? If you are going to be digging up the floor and a 2' hole outside I'd strongly recommend replacing the whole of the lead pipe to the stopcock. If by any chance you've got retricted flow it may help this, as well as avoid the worry of a buried adaptor with two compression joints.

[Fredxx]

If you cut away a pipe in the manner you might expect to fit a Lead-Loc then fresh lead will be exposed. I don't see the advantage over fitting a 15mm copper pipe into a lead pipe and soldering the two. Lead melts at a higher temperature than lead free solder. It is possible less fresh lead is exposed in a soldered combination that can leach lead.

Most of the youtube videos regarding wiping a joint use 60/40 tin/lead solder. That is pretty close to eutectic. I always thought for wiping you used a 70/30 lead/tin where you had a wide temperature range when the solder is workable as it cools.