The first service I had was put in by a family of electricians whose
license had been pulled by the city of Chicago for not paying off
The old man of the family was currently wearing a wire for the feds.
Many inspectors went down that year.
Of Chicago's 51 electrical inspectors 29 were indicted.
And 25 convicted.
Chicago inspectors never learn, they are still being caught and sent
to the big house, mostly for shaking down electricians, AKA extortion.
The FBI loves this shit.
The second service I had put in was in Morton Grove, IL.
As far as a $100 bribe, I think I'll put my faith in people I hire
doing the job right over your paranoia.
One of my daughters just married an electrical contractor.
I'm thinking about hiring him put in some new circuits here.
I'll ask him if he bribes inspectors and does sub-standard work.
Just for laughs.
You didn't answer the question.
Which had nothing to do with my judgement of who I hire.
If you don't like the licensing/permit/inspection system, just say so.
And give me your alternative.
Heybub says no permits works where he is.
Is that your preference?
Gfretwell is or was an actual local government electrical inspector.
He might have insights into this.
Me, I haven't found permits/inspections to be a problem, but what do I
I do feel safer with that process, since I know squat about
electricity, and figure licensing, permitting and inspection gives a
better chance of quality work than a crap shoot.
For plumbing, I just roll my own when it's stuff I know about.
I have no paranoia. I live in the real world. I'm merely saying that
it's naive to believe that you're protected because a guy has a license,
or an inspector says something is OK. People should be their own advocates.
I believe that most electricians are in business to make a living, and
it's to their advantage to do the job correctly and honestly, and to
make every customer happy. Doing so will get you more customers with
less effort. I think that most electricians would do quite well without
an inspector, and I think that the real criminals in the business will
and have always found ways around whatever regulations are imposed. I
think it's important as a customer, to judge people's characters if you
know little about the work that they're going to do.
And I'll bet gfretwell does have some stories to tell.
I never said inspectors invaded my life, and I never said I've been
invaded by Feds.
I am however a little ticked off that the county wants me to pay
several hundred dollars a year for training to cut holes in sheetrock
because it may have lead paint on it.
Florida allows "owner builder" permits too.
It simply means the inspector has to look for different things than
you would expect from a "pro".
In the case of a service change, virtually everything is exposed and I
would expect the inspection to last a few minutes more but I would not
be walking away from a hazard. The PoCo generally will not energize
the circuit until they get a release from the inspector.
Pros are the guys who will hot splice SE cables at the service point
with Romex connectors and leave.
I am assuming these panels are very close together too, just in the
other "dwelling" (not "grouped" unless you rip out the wall)
I see 2 choices,
If your panel supports feed through lugs, feed the second panel from
the rails of the first one using a 4 wire feeder sized to 200a
or put in a breaker and do it at 100a. (about as big a breaker as you
can hang on a pair of slots.)
BTW for the code junkies, what is the paradox with the feed through
Plan B would be converting the whole service to 400a.
You can take one of the service entrance sets, upgraded to 400mcm
copper (or whatever the PoCo wants to call it, they may say it is
320a) , Set the appropriate disconnect, split it with Polaris style
connectors (clones are a lot cheaper than the brand name) and feed
both panels at 200a (in pipe)
Let the PoCo decide how they want to upsize your service on their
As I said in the original post, the breaker boxes are eight inches apart.
And unless someone can come up with a reason to do otherwise - that doesn't
involve zoning, permits, or city inspectors, none of which are relevant -
I'm going with your Plan A.
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:09:45 -0500, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Why can't he use two 60A breakers (and wire), backfeeding the 200A (now sub)
panel through one of the 60A breakers. This is how I've always installed
BTW, he still has an entrance cable in the (now) sub-panel. Doesn't that have
to come out, along with the weather head and all?
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:28:30 -0500, " email@example.com"
That would be Plan A above, and he really only needs one 60a breaker
and feed the sub through the 200a main, or remove it and install MLO
lugs.. I suggested 100a but the same idea.
If he has feed through lugs in the first panel, he can use those and
feed #2 at 200a.
BTW nobody bit on the paradox. ;-)
On 1/29/2012 1:22 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Only question I have offhand is with the second panel fed from
main lugs on the first whether you have 2 service panels or a service
and subpanel. A subpanel requires some changes RBM got into. IMHO if you
have main lugs to main lugs you have 2 service panels. Main lugs to 200A
breaker - still 2 service panels?
My electric company has different rates for different times of the
years with an escalating scale for summer use when peak loads are
determined. So you might want to check that and see if the extra meter
could be used to keep you off the higher summer rates.
Panel 2 is a sub because the feed through lugs are on the load side of
the service disconnect (connected to the breaker rails)
This is legally a "feeder tap". Panels listed for feed through lugs
will have threaded holes on the rails.
Otherwise you can add a 2 pole breaker and go that way, feeding the
200a main in the other panel.
You will use the insulated neutral bus (remove the jumper/green
screw) and add a grounding bus or two for the grounding wires. Move
Run a 4 wire feeder.
I wouldn't think so. The power company simply turns off the meter (it's one
of those new-fangled kinds that's read and manipulated remotely). The power
company has thousands of disconnects (and re-connects) daily - they don't
know whether I've rewired the place or a renter moved out.
I could see the utility company requiring you to remove the standpipe,
meter, and entrance cable. At the very least, I would think that the
entrance cable would have to go, to prevent any possible accidents. I
speculate this, because they have no way to know how or if you, or a
future owner/tenant, has terminated the unused entrance feeder
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