Proposed Project Check

I'm a big believer in self regulation. Where I live and work, it's actually a misdemeanor to do electrical wiring without a license, which I think is probably unconstitutional, but until someone takes it to court, it's the law. On his property, if he wants to do any kind of construction, plumbing, wiring, etc. it should be his business. Yes, on occasion people do things wrong or sloppy and bad things happen. Such is life. I think there is something about the human, or at least the American spirit, that doesn't want to be protected from itself. As a second generation electrician, I can tell you that having a layer of bureaucracy between me and my work, does little to benefit me if the work I or my employees does, causes fire or death. Having known dozens of electrical inspectors over the years, lets just say that they are human too and all to often very corrupted

Reply to
RBM
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As I said in the original post, the breaker boxes are eight inches apart. And unless someone can come up with a reason to do otherwise - that doesn't involve zoning, permits, or city inspectors, none of which are relevant - I'm going with your Plan A.

Reply to
HeyBub

On another note, some years ago, I pulled into a restaurant parking lot and as I was backing into a space, a car came into the entrance and began to try to go behind me, where there wasn't enough room to get between me and the one parked car adjacent to me. Following the laws of physics, she hit the parked car next to me and grazed the back of my truck. When she got out of the car, I asked what exactly happened, and she told me that she just left the service station down the street, where she had gotten a brake job. Needless to say, her brakes failed.

OK, here is an example where you have a 5000 pound moving machine, capable of doing all manner of death and destruction, improperly serviced, causing a major malfunction. Should this and every service station have a government inspector on hand to assure each potentially deadly job was done correctly? What about do it yourself mechanics? Where do you draw the line? I think, to follow the laws of ~~ Evan, we'd need an army of government inspectors to invade all aspects of our lives... for our own benefit. I also think that this is exactly what our current president has in mind

Reply to
RBM

Oh. I wasn't aware he was a nay-sayer or a carrier of a sign saying "Thy Doom Is Nigh." I've sent his name off to the "It's Not A Pustule" society.

And thanks for the examples.

Again, thanks for the endorsement.

Reply to
HeyBub

Florida allows "owner builder" permits too. It simply means the inspector has to look for different things than you would expect from a "pro". In the case of a service change, virtually everything is exposed and I would expect the inspection to last a few minutes more but I would not be walking away from a hazard. The PoCo generally will not energize the circuit until they get a release from the inspector. Pros are the guys who will hot splice SE cables at the service point with Romex connectors and leave.

Reply to
gfretwell

Why can't he use two 60A breakers (and wire), backfeeding the 200A (now sub) panel through one of the 60A breakers. This is how I've always installed subs.

BTW, he still has an entrance cable in the (now) sub-panel. Doesn't that have to come out, along with the weather head and all?

Please tell us.

Reply to
krw

That Sir is a mighty fine question and a good example. Next thing the folks in favor of big govt will want to regulate that too. Here in NJ we had annual car inspections done only by state facilities for years. There was no statistically significant difference in accident rates attributable to mechanical malfunction from states where there was no inspection. Now new cars are exempt for 5 years and old cars only get inspected every 2.

I agree.

Reply to
trader4

That would be Plan A above, and he really only needs one 60a breaker and feed the sub through the 200a main, or remove it and install MLO lugs.. I suggested 100a but the same idea. If he has feed through lugs in the first panel, he can use those and feed #2 at 200a.

BTW nobody bit on the paradox. ;-)

Reply to
gfretwell

Holy Connolly, I had no idea that NJ relaxed those rules. In NY it's just getting uglier and just another reason I feel over regulated. I have a new 2010 diesel Sprinter. Three countys in the state require a special diesel emissions inspection annually, mine being one of them. My regular mechanic is not going to spend the whatever thousands of dollars to buy the machine, for the few diesel customers he has, so I'm forced to go out of my way, to mechanics I don't like, to have this done. Unlike in ~~Evan's world, where the government does this sort of thing, we have a more Fascist system, where the government forces the private sector to do this stuff.In any event, it's just another example of government interference restricting my choice

Reply to
RBM

Wow... No wonder why things work so well in Texas, no zoning regulations, so like, I could drill for oil right next to a school or apartment building and no one could complain, right, since there are no regulations...

And the tax assessor relies on the property owners being honest with self reported information...

Damn... Add that up with a part-time legislature and you can really see how well that all works out for everyone...

Is it the honesty thing that works out the best ? Or that nearly everyone is so well armed in Texas ?

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

So you have 1,500 total square feet ? Or 3,000 total square feet ?

There is a difference there...

I guess it sounds like you can do whatever the f*ck you want since your area has no code oversight and no zoning rules...

Thank god I am not in Texas...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

Nope... Up in the civilized educated part of the country, BOTH the building inspector AND the fire department inspectors are involved in the construction oversight process...

Actually, your trade wouldn't...

Your word against your customer's word in court is an even wash, the inspector's report and certificate speaks volumes as an uninterested 3rd party to the transaction... Without a 3rd party to provide impartial evidence you would be on the hook for any fire caused by an "electrical" problem... Would be your burden to prove it wasn't you -- civil cases are much different than criminal ones, all a plaintiff has to do is have a causation to bring the suit against you which is supported by the barest minimum of evidence... The ball is in your court after that to show by producing evidence that you weren't at fault...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

RBM is a licensed electrician in ONE jurisdiction...

Apparently his territorial land is located in the middle of the spectrum between NO regulation and the safer places where when electrical fires DO happen it is because of what people have plugged into the outlets, not mistakes made inside the walls that were never checked by someone who actually knows what they are doing...

As far as your bullshit about HVAC, yes, NOTHING is allowed to be vented to the atmosphere under EPA regulations, NOTHING... Anything put into an HVAC system has to be recovered and properly disposed of... Get caught doing what you described and you won't be doing any further work on HVAC equipment when the EPA shuts you down...

As to the PVC vent piping on high pressure boilers, umm yeah, let most of the people here who have trouble making WATER tight joints in PVC pipes call a professional who makes many joints in a day be the one to work on those vent pipes, because vapor tight connections aren't something the average homeowner is going to be able to do -- but then again there are a few people here who ask stupid questions who could probably make the world a better place if they died from CO poisoning from a leaky pipe...

Yes... The zoning board determines how many occupancies may exist on each plot of land... If the dwelling is approved and permitted as TWO units, then until the owner gets approved to reduce the number of units to ONE, all services to that dwelling must be maintained as if it were two separate units... Which means a separate electrical service, a separate water connection, et al... Just because someone declares that they have changed the use of some building in most places doesn't make it so, the OP seems to live in the land of exceptions, where he can do whatever he wants without seeking approval... That is just not the case in most places with an actual population density where safety is important because you are within arms length of your neighbor...

RBM advocated the use of an existing 200amp service panel which includes a 200amp rated main disconnect as a sub panel being fed from a 60 amp branch circuit -- that would not fly anywhere around here, you would have to remove that main disconnect... So you would be looking at replacing the panel which has the disconnect with one which uses main lugs and supported fewer branch circuits based on the amperage...

I hardly ever see any good advice from you either, so perhaps that feeling is mutual...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

I have a 1980-Mercedes 300SD tubodiesel. One day a couple years ago it was due for inspection. I drove over to the state inspection facility and they told me to go away and NEVER COME BACK. A new addition to the law is that diesels older than like 1996 don't need to be inspected at all. The problem is that before that they don't have an OBD computer with emissions data which is all they use now.

Which gets into another story about govt waste. Back in the days of Christie Whitman, the feds imposed inspection requirements on the NY area states for emissions. They wanted the cars dyno tested at highway speeds while the emissions were read. Instead of refusing to do it, taking it all the way to the supreme court, etc, she just bent over. Cost us about $500mil, complete with cost overruns, late deployment, inspection lines 4 blocks long, etc.

Then, within about 3 years, the EPA decides that the info from the computers in the cars is all that's needed. As if they didn't know that was on the way already. So, they ripped all of it out within 5 years. Now about all they check is emissions via connecting to the car OBD computer and test the brakes on a device where they roll up and hit them and it shows force at each wheel. They used to check horn, wipers, headlights, headlight aiming, turn signals, brake lights, tires, glass cracks, chips, etc... They lifted the front-end and tried to rock the wheels to see if ball joints were loose.

Now it;s emissions, brake, bye.

I hear you brother.

Reply to
trader4

LOL... Its funny you talk about cars... The only thing that the government cars about with them is passing a basic safety test and emissions control equipment check periodically... Those certified inspectors are in fact agents of the government even though they are not direct government employees...

Everything else to do with cars the operators are responsible for and that is why responsible drivers obtain insurance...

Bad brake job ? Hope she sued that mechanic as it seems the vehicle wasn't road tested at all to verify the repairs were properly made if the shop was truly "just down the street" from where the brakes failed again...

Although you don't know what work was done, or if the lady was trying to be cheap and only fix what was obviously broken rather than replacing all the questionable lines and another one ruptured when she gave the brake pedal a good pump...

Your state must not check things like brakes during the vehicle inspection process, mine does... But then again the state only requires inspections done every other year, so brakes that passed at inspection time one year can be quite dangerous in the time immediately prior to the next inspection 24 months later...

Since a "do it yourself" mechanic can't put his/her own inspection sticker on their car without being certified by the state to do so, I see no harm in having the government involved in the process somewhere... I do hope that those mechanics who do their own work on their cars have additional insurance coverage though, because there is no "mechanic" or service station to go after for shoddy work if something that was repaired fails again and causes an accident...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

Can you tell me where Obama, or GWB, or Reagan inspectors "invaded" your life? Not GWB's light bulbs. That's a national security issue. It's called ENERGY INDEPENDENCE AND SECURITY ACT OF 2007. I was already replacing filament with CFL's long before that was passed. TSA is also about national security. I don't fly, and never had a TSA joker invade my house. So except for funding TSA via my taxes, it's non-existant to me. Then you have Nixon's EPA. I remember when Los Angeles was always full of smog, and we had many bad days in Chicago. All I know is the air is much cleaner than it was in the '60's.

I'm curious how you are being "invaded" by the Feds. Aren't most codes and inspections locally imposed? Heybub has none to worry about. You think electricians shouldn't be licensed? Not me. I know nothing at all about electricity, except it can start fires and zap you. I paid licensed electricians to put a new service in two of my houses, and to pull permits, and the work was inspected by the cities. Then I never worried about my family's safety on that score. Is there a better way?

Sure, in some places inspecting is used as a source of graft/collusion. I've seen that first hand. They were caught in the end, as are most criminals.

I've encountered only one stupid example of Federal government inspection, when I was operating packaging machines. Packaging a dry soup mix for the military in a nitrogen environment machine. There was always a Fed inspector there while I was working. He'd look at and weigh packets once in a while, duplicating what I was already doing. His presence had no effect on me. Total waste of tax dollars. I know there's a lot of that. Checking random packets at the receiving center would have been much more efficient.

Anyway, regulations always seem to degenerate into a political topic, without getting into the need or stupidity of them. That's why I ask for specific examples, and alternatives. That way you're talking sense and not politics.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

It's funny, I read these posts from guys like Heybub, who live in these "lawless" lands, and I'm jealous. DPB showed some pix of his place, absolutely God's country, and there is poor ~~Evan, the mere thought has him trembling. Wonder where he lives? Maybe Vermont

Reply to
RBM

e:

Just wait... You will experience those statistically higher numbers of accidents when people realize that they only have to do repairs on their vehicles once every 2 years, and then only enough to pass inspection...

What studies were these ? Because just like causes of death on an autopsy report, there are secondary and tertiary causes of car accidents... Is that like those mortality studies which blame death by gunshot when the effect of being shot caused someone with high blood pressure to have a heart attack ?

"Operator error" can be compounded by "cell phone use" which was all made worse by an underlying mechanical defect which was not repaired... Both the secondary and tertiary causes here increased the amount of time needed for the vehicle to stop, one due to a distraction which increased the operator's response time and the other which caused the vehicle's stopping distance to be more than it otherwise would have been if the car was in good repair...

Often times the people deciding why an accident happened are measuring yaw marks on the road and basing that decision off the speeds involved and whatever witness testimony is available... No one pulls the vehicles into an inspection bay to check them unless there has been a serious injury or fatality where criminal charges might result... So until every last fender bender is investigated by certified accident reconstruction investigators I would call the data you refer to as flawed based on being decided with only a cursory glance at the actual facts involved...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

There you go again. Show us the data that says fires are being caused by homeowners doing their own electrical work.

Does that include the brain farts you periodically discharge, like in this thread? Kindly show us all where the law is that says that I can't allow nitrogen from an HVAC system to enter the atmosphere. If I buy a new coil, how is it shipped? Hmmm? It comes with a small charge of nitrogen in it and expansion plugs in the braze connections. So, tell us smart guy, how do I use it without allowing the nitrogen to escape? Without some new invention, when I remove those plugs, the nitrogen is coming out into the atmosphere. Hold your breath! Will the whales all die? What percent of the atmosphere is already nitrogen? Maybe they should shut down Rheem for supplying dangerous crap like that which can't be used without, according to you, violating the law.

Geez, guys like you are really scary. You know just enough to be dangerous, but think you know everything, how the world should work and want to regulate the rest of us and tell us what we can and cannot do.

=A0>Anything put into an HVAC

If I pee in it do I have to recover that too? Where do I take the pee?

We all know that REFRIGERANTS must be reclaimed and not allowed to enter the atmosphere deliberately. Kindly provide a cite that says EVERYTHING must be recovered.

Priovide us with a cite or STF up.

You Sir are so full of crap, it's unbelievable. Who said anything about high pressure boilers? It's just another example of how you drag all kinds of etraneous nonsense into these threads. I don't have a high pressure boiler and never said a word about them. I was talking about HIGH EFFICIENCY furnaces or boilers. You know, the kind that folks here actually have.

And regarding making PVC joints, I can see where you're coming from. It's likely a great challenge for you. So, you think the typical homeowner can't do it. Everyone else here pretty much has no problem making them and it's no harder, more difficult, more demanding to make one for a PVC vent pipe for a furnace than it is for a water pipe. Watch the guy with the butt crack showing sometime. It's prime it, apply the cement and join. So, stop the hysteria.

Look, homeowners are installing their own gas stoves, gas water heaters, gas overns, gas dryers. Funny thing, I don't see houses blowing up everyday where the cause was attributed to it being done by a homeowner versus a professional. And I think if there were a demostrable case that homeowner jobs were sooo much more dangerous, that politicians and regulators like you would have done something about it a long time ago.

As for your silly CO leak, the amount of gas that could escape from a tiny leak in an imperfect PVC vent pipe from a furnace is pretty damn small. And it's pretty damn hard to wind up with a leak. How exactly do you know the guy with the butt crack or his imbecile $7 an hour helper are doing it perfectly either? And the products of combustion from a normally functioning furnace have only trace levels of CO. You get CO from a malfunctioning furnace. In fact, prior to direct vent furnaces, you know where the backup vent for those gases was, in case the chimney was blocked? It came right out the face of the furnace into the house or basement. Yet I'm supposed to believe that I'm too imcompetent to make a PVC joint on a furnace vent and folks are gonna die?

Who the hell cares. Rag on

You seem to live in the land of "know it all"

where he

Rag on.

The main disconnect is NOT CONNECTED. Maybe they would fail it for that where you are. But so what? Are you 100% sure of what an inspector wherever you are would say? Is that what you posted? No, youcame at Heybub, like he was the village idiot. RBM is a licensed electrician and he says it's OK in his location. A lot more useful than your blanket black and white hysteria.

I sure hope it's mutual, because I wouldn't want you agreeing with me on anything. You see anyone else here agreeing with you?

Reply to
trader4

Only question I have offhand is with the second panel fed from main lugs on the first whether you have 2 service panels or a service and subpanel. A subpanel requires some changes RBM got into. IMHO if you have main lugs to main lugs you have 2 service panels. Main lugs to 200A breaker - still 2 service panels?

Reply to
bud--

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