Then the next logical question would be who needs this detergent
and does it actually do anything or is it marketing hype? I've had
all kinds of cars and put a lot of miles on many of them, didn't
use premium in most of them and had no problems. And given
that most people use regular or one step up, you would think
there would be a lot of problems if this extra detergent was
On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:44:11 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
People are stupid. Shell marketing knows that. So they sow
FUD with the "detergent" question. Shell marketing is *not*
I once saw a statistic that only 5% of the cars out there
have a compression ratio such that they need the higher
octane (aka "premium") gasoline to prevent knocking
(piezo-electric knock sensors aside).
So, as you said, if 95% of the cars out there were getting
insufficient detergents, you'd think we'd know this by now.
PS: Yes, I do know that when fuel injection first became
popular, the government had to mandate a certain detergent
level for all gasolines; but that was decades ago.
On 05/25/2013 01:08 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:
That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system cleaner
like Techron, and any "top tier" gasoline brand should have enough
detergents in any grade to not require additives unless you're doing a
remedial clean up.
NB: I know that "top tier" is probably more marketing BS and I have no
issues using e.g. Sunoco fuel in my car even though it is not "top tier"
but I didn't want to start another discussion of what is a "good brand"
or not with the inevitable sidebar "it all comes from the same refinery
anyway." Long story short, I feel confident buying gasoline from any
station that is a major national brand.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
On Sat, 25 May 2013 13:46:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:
Techron is actually a trademark and not a chemical, which is
found on a wide suite of solutions.
Guess what is in those various formulations?
The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!
- poly ether amines
- iso octanol (alcohol)
- aliphatic naptha (aromatics)
Check out the MSDS if you don't believe me.
I certainly do believe that, was just pointing out that Techron is
pretty much the most universally well regarded of fuel system cleaners
and is in fact effective.
I also agree that it is likely not necessary unless there's a known
issue with fuel injectors. I do use it in my vehicles as one is a BMW
with the N54 engine and already had one of its second set of fuel
injectors replaced recently, and the other, well, just because I'm a
little on the anal retentive side. A treatment before every oil change
should be more than sufficient for any but the most anal retentive.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
Polyether amines are not present in most gasolines. They are a
component of the additive package in Chevron gasolines, and they are a
very effective fuel system and combustion chamber cleaner.
Chevron Techron was the first product marketed with concentrated PEA -
many companies now have their own version.
And just because Techron is a brand name (not a trademark) does not
make my recommendation any less legitimate - all "techron" contains
some level of PEA -
Nowhere did I intimate Techron was a chemical. It is a brand name fuel
conditioner that actually works. If I said I use PEA nobody would
have a clue what it is or where to get it.
Googling, I find that Chevron gasoline has 400 ppm polyetheramine.
Googling some more, we find that all top-tier gasolines meet a
certain cleanliness standard; this standard does not require PEA -
the manufacturers can meet the standard with *any* detergent package
that works (and apparently many work as it's just soap for gas):
Googling for whether all gasolines sold in the US have polyetheramine
detergents, and knowing that all those gasolines have detergents,
we find this slide set from Chevron:
Which intimates succinimides, and not polyetheramines, nor
Polyisobutylene amines, are the most common detergents used in
gasoline to meet the federal detergent standards.
In the same slide set, they say there is a demand for differentiation
via additives, which means that if detergent 1 and detergent 2
work, if you can promote detergent 1 (even though it may be no
better than detergent 2), then you've accomplished that goal of
differentiation (hence, as we all know from Eco 101, you can charge
more to those who fall for the trick).
So, I'd say you are correct that probably not all gasolines have
PEA, but, all gasolines have detergents, and one detergent may
be as good as another - but even if they're the same, Chevron
marketing will try to differentiate their soap from the other
guys' soap - so that they can charge more to the sap who falls
for the switcheroo.
BTW, the slide set intimates that California emission standards
force manufacturers to improve their fuel - and - well - I do
live in California - so - it may be that all gasoline sold in CA
is "top tier" with respect to detergents; but I don't know that
for a fact.
On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000, Danny D wrote:
I stand corrected by clare in fact, but not in substance.
All gasolines have detergents; and, many detergents work just as
well as others - but most gasolines apparently use succinimides
for detergents, while some use polyetheramines (and others use
So, I thank clare for bringing this error to my attention,
and, I'll revise that statement above to say that all gasolines
meet the Federal standard for detergents, and all gasolines
sold in California meet California standards for detergents,
but they use different detergents to meet those standards.
The important thing is, do they work? Seems as though they do from my
experience. I cannot think of a fuel related problems in the past 30+
My car dealer though, tries to sell injector cleaning every year at
$159. If I followed his advice, I'd have pissed away at least $4500
over the years and only achieved in making the dealer more
profitable. That is why I don't use the dealer for service.
On Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I agree with you, based on my personal experience.
All gasolines sold in my state have the three ingredients that
are sold by the Techron marketing team as an additive package
(i.e., detergent, alcohol, & aromatics).
To me, adding *more* of the same, is not necessarily a good
It's clear, to me, that "Techron" (which indicates some level
of PEA detergents) is merely a marketing "differentiation"
created solely to garner more money from the consumer.
All gasolines have detergents.
Detergents are cheap.
PEA is cheap.
Techron is not.
The difference between PEA and other detergents that work as a
standard fuel detergent, is PEA is the only one that is effective at
REMOVING deposits when used as an additive. The other detergents used
in tier 1 gasolines help PREVENT deposits. PEA, as used in Techron and
a number of other additives is one of the only fuel detergents found
to be very effective at REMOVING deposits - not only in the fuel
system, but both before the intake valve and inside the combustion
MMO and Sea Foam and several other lesser products are fairly good at
cleaning the fuel system, and have a reasonable effect on existing
deposits - helping loosen them up and get them out - but nothing close
to the PEA additives.
Some additives that are added to the fuel in distribution work to some
extent to remove deposits as well, but are unsuitable as customer
Hmmm... I have no idea how effective PEA is vs the other detergents ...
but ... from what I had read when I looked up the succinimides, not all
Tier 1 gasolines have PEA, yet all Tier 1 gasolines meet the desired
high-end automotive manufacturer standards for removing deposits.
If that statement is true, then that would indicate that there are
other ways to get good detergent action than PEA.
Is that a correct assumption?
Read my previous statement. There ARE other detergents that allow a
fuel to meet Tier 1 specs.
However, NONE of them have proven to be terribly effective at REMOVING
accumulated deposits - which is not the job of a tier 1 gasoline. Tier
1 gasolines are to avoid buildup in the first place.
PEA, as a consumer level additive, is the most effective way to REMOVE
Marvel Mystery Oil is about 80% napthenic hydrocarbons
(CAS Number 64742525), aka, hydrogenated aromatics, with
the rest being your basic mineral spirits (CAS Number 8052413)
and a chlorinated benzene, namely 1,2-dichloro-benzene
(CAS Number 95501).
Their advertising says it has the "mysterious ability to
cure and prevent almost any engine ailment.".
Wow. That's better than aspirin & penicillin combined!
If only it were true.
Sea Foam is half something called Pale oil, a third your
basic Naptha, and a sixth your standard iso-propyl alcohol.
Pale oil is basically a light machine oil (like what you
put in your trumpet or sewing machine or hair clippers).
Why anyone would want to add oil, more alcohol, and more
benzene to gasoline (which, by the way, is called "benzene"
and not gasoline in other countries for obvious reasons),
is well beyond my comprehension level.
I guess the theory is that the solvent cleans fuel
injector openings; and, maybe it works - but - with
all that smoke - I'd worry about the catalytic
converters and wonder how smoke is supposed to be
cleaning my injectors (that's an indirect inference,
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