log burning - economical?

[R D S]

I am toying with a log burning stove which can do hot water and CH.

I would be interested to hear from anyone burning logs as to whether they find it economical or not and any other input.

Cheers.

[George (dicegeorge)]

The biggest expense seems to be getting stainless steel liners and insulation installed in the chimneys- burners burn hotter than the coal fires my chimneys were designed for, and some wood gives off tar which coats the chimney -

Wen I lived in a bus with a rayburn and a short metal chimney every so often i'd scrape it clean with a metal bar though sometimes the tar in the chimney caught fire and a few feet of flame came out of the top of the chimney- entertaining in a metal bus but here it could set fire to my house (and the neighbours...)

[g]

[robgraham]

I don't think George's reply is quite what the OP was after - I imagine it's the long term running costs he's looking for. But on the capital side, the OP also needs to be aware that unless he goes the chip wood route, a wood burner almost certainly needs to run in parallel with a standard CH system which correspondingly means modifications to the plumbing and boiler controls - Dunsley Neutraliser and a differential thermostat on the log burner to turn off the CH boiler when the fire is hot.

I can't give a monetary answer to the running costs because although I've had a wood burner for many years I've always managed to get the upwards of 2 tons of wood required each year for nought.

The cost is in the effort to achieve this - logging the wood (chain saws - 22" and 15"), transporting it, hydraulic log splitter and under cover storage near the house. Then add in the regular chimney sweeping - maybe that's not so necessary with a steel liner (?).

The other problem is that in order to get the 15kw plus of heat for the CH system a fairly large stove is required and it will emit a huge amount of radiant heat into the room it's in. There maybe well be stoves on the market now that are more efficient in heating water than the room but that's the major parameter that I would be looking at if I was having to replace mine now.

Rob

[The Natural Philosopher]

Its hard to say. The price of fuels is up and down like the proverbial..

Solid fuel is also a bit of a hassle.

What we are finding is that due to only having three heating zones,lighting the woodburner in just the room of choice is cheaper than running the full CH for the odd chilly autumn night.

However I would try NOT to rely on a soild fuel CH source. Been there, done that, come back after a day away to an icy house..

But as additional inputs, yes, why not?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes, yes and yes.

The way to run solid fuel is to have a series of wood or coal burning stoves or ranges arranged strategically throughout the house. One f*ck off giant one is actually a pain for the reasons you cite.

Bro in law has Aga in kitchen (oil admittedly) that heats that and the stairway and landing which is off the kitchen,and wood stove in living room, which heats that and to an extent the bedrooms above.

CH boiler exists, but does hot water only until the depths of winter. His fuel costs are,considering. reasonably low.

He gets cubic meters of wood at reasonable prices off an estate nearby.

Neither of us has hot water as an overriding cost. Space heating is the killer.

[dom]

As others have said - look at the costs of a suitable chimney/flue first.

Effectiveness depends on the design of your house - open plan-ish is good to get the radiant heat from the stove about.

You will need significant storage space for logs, and at least the fitness level to stack them when delivered, and bring indoors what you need every day - even if you don't seek out your own.

At risk of stating the obvious - green wood needs to be seasoned for at least a year.

Yes - I find them very economical - the task of loading and starting the stove means I don't use it more than necessary, plus I have enough scrap joinery offcuts each year to cover about half my needs.

For covering CH and HW as well - which mine doesn't - have a look at the solid fuel Rayburns

I'm very impressed with how well a friends old Rayburn Royale stays in for many hours - and can burn most solid fuels I believe.

There would also likely be a significant replumbing cost for the necessary gravity circuit and cylinder for a solid fuel stove with backboiler.

If you go for a non-backboiler stove - I've been completely happy with my Jotul F600

[mogga]

next door but one only have a log burner for hot water and heating. The previous guy who put it in used to have his lounge windows open all winter as the lounge was sooo hot in order to heat the rest of the place. The new people think it's better than the coal fire they used to have. Even two tips of logs a year is cheaper than a months gas in winter I think. It's just the effort of cleaning the fire and keeping it going.

[Tim Lamb]

Cost of providing and storing logs seems pretty fundamental. The lead time on Dunsley log burners with boilers designed to provide most of the HW and CH requirements is now 16 weeks. So I assume others are jumping on this particular bandwagon. This must eventually impact on the availability and price of delivered fuel. Counting the dead and dying Oaks on this farm, I think I could probably offset 50% of my gas consumption but if I had to employ someone to do the cutting and hauling, I doubt the capital outlay could be recovered.

I have been studying the literature/websites and the *wrap around* boiler types do not give an enormous output to the room.

There also appear to be other *convenience* issues. The max. rated output is often quoted at 3/4 hour stoking intervals. Not a problem if you are just pottering about the house but means reliance on the existing CH unless you like early morning fire lighting.

Running with the *doors open* may require an 8" flue and anything over

4.9kW requires extra draught provision. So there are other building costs to consider.

Lots of informative websites out there.

regards

[R D S]

So the concensus is that it's worth looking at. We stayed in a cottage which had a wood burner last weekend which got me thinking about it. I was surprised by how much wood we seemed to get through but I have no idea how much it costs.

Thanks for everyone's input.

[AJH]

I doubt many landowners get paid for firewood at stump, the costs are all to do with harvesting. People who buy wood are normally buying a luxury good and will pay far more than its calorific value compared with other fuels.

Also many stoves are not run efficiently at all, 70% calorific value delivered into the room is actually quite difficult.

AJH

[Bill Taylor]

Rayburns are OK if you want to burn coal or manufactured coal type fuel, but they're useless for wood. The fire box is much too small, you'ld be feeding it every ten miutes.

[Gordon Henderson]

We have one which is room heat only - up to 8.5KW output by the book. Cost us about £1200 to have it all installed including the stove. (A Stovax one) Just about to get a 2nd one installed - again room heat only in my office (I work from home), but in the future we're looking at replacing our conventional gas back-boiler with a 3rd stove with a back boiler fitted.

You need a modern stove with an efficient air circulation / pre-heat system to get the most out of the wood and not chuck most of it up the chimney. (In a pub last night with a log-fire and I was convinced all it was doing was sucking cold air into the room rather than heating it!!!)

However, we have an easy supply of wood, relatively cheap, our own chainsaw and a gert big axe to split them with... (And for now, the physical abiltiy to cope with it!)

So your source of wood is something to consider - and note that the Forrestry Commi$$ion have just deicded that for Elfin Safety reasons (ie. we get more moeny out of the commercial people) they can't let mere mortals collect firewood anymore (at least in Wales - we just got a 6-month permit where we are this year, who knows about next)

The one thing that concerns me is coming home to a cold house in the middle of winter, so to that end what I want is a big thermal store and if I need to, then I can dump this into the radiators until the fire gets going - well that's a plan anyway. (Store being replenished by anything to hand - solar[1], cooker (which has a small back boiler) and the wood stove.

Gordon

[1] and I don't give a hoot about the cost-return on solar water - as long as it reduces my bills to the money grabbing utility rip-off merchants, I'll be happy!

[The Natural Philosopher]

Nah. You can chuck it straight on. It seasons in about 20 mins. If whats there is hot enough.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I think its about 75 quid a cubic meter, which is probably around 1/3 ton.

A quick google sez that a cubic meter is about 700Kwh, so at equivalent to electric thats maybe about 10p per unit..assuming 100% efficiency. Or oil at 100p a liter.

On ebay theres a cubic meter of oak logs at 45 quid.

This looks fun

think te savins genrally come because you only heat what rooms you want heated.

Don't underestimate how much junkmail and household rubbish you can burn as well...

Also, if you do carpentry, scrap timber.

[mogga]

I like his woodstore! Bit pricey though. :)

[mogga]

A neighbour is a joiner and gave us a vanload of builders wood. It burns really quickly compared to proper logs but hey it's free. :)

If you solared the hot water too you'd probably be sorted. :)

[mogga]

This is a very good point!

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher saying something like:

Heh. Chimney creosote fires are a hoot, don't you know?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yup..

;-)

That;s no so much an issue with stoves though.. insulated liners reduce condensation. You just shower the neighborhood with dioxins instead. ;-)

Of course if everybody starts burning wood - or coal - again, it will be back to 50's smog levels. And a new Clean Air Act.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher saying something like:

Everything has a drawback. I'm reminded of the double-oven Rayburn I converted back from oil to run on solid fuel and fed with timber off the hill at the back of the farm - that, and coal waste from the old coal mine up the back. Cracking stove that was, and produced some wonderful bread from those ovens. One day there was a continuous roaring noise that rose in pitch until it was like a jet engine whining away - the creosote and resins in the chimney (unlined) had caught fire and continued to burn for a while after I shut the dampers off. Luckily the chimney was in good nick and the building didn't go up, but I was more careful about chucking unseasoned wood on it after that.