LED bulbs not so bad

[Ed Pawlowski]

Mine goes of once every couple of months. Maybe you drive too close?

[Muggles]

I just changed all my bathroom lights to LED. Much nicer, I think.

[HerHusband]

I don't see any extra fees on my bill. I pay the same basic service fee I've paid for 20+ years, plus my actual energy usage.

It's cheaper for most utilities to pay for free light bulbs and whatnot than it is to build more power plants. Saving electricity costs less than generating more.

Anthony Watson

[HerHusband]

That's my goal too. I noticed a drop on our bill when switching from incandescents to CFL's years ago. The switch from CFL to LED isn't as significant, but I have noticed a difference in our usage already.

So far I've focused on the lights that are on most often. I'm slowly replacing the lesser used bulbs over time. I actually still have a few fixtures with incandescents in them, but we don't turn them on enough to matter.

Anthony Watson

[Robert Green]

Hey, the Tbird/Cougar sequential turn signal system was pretty slick for its time. Sadly it was about as reliable as a Yugo because the "mechanical sequencer" wasn't up to the environment it found itself in. The spare would run for months with no problem on a test bench but once mounted in the car, it would fail.

It's a 3 cam rotating switch and along with a number of relays, would fail in some interesting ways. I helped my father by standing by the trunk and reporting whether the unit (in the sidewell) was even clicking at all. Now you'd do it with a tiny chip and some relays, but back then (1967) electronics were not as widely used in cars as they are today.

I have a newer minivan with speed-engaging door locks and all sorts of other "quantum entanglements" that make the Cougar's interlocking system look simple. Unfortunately it makes troubleshooting a very complex procedure. Essentially I have two "door control units" now and one is a "hangar queen."

I wonder how much more complexity there is in a 2015 car than there is in a

2000 or an 1980 model?

Because NHTSA and the insurance companies discovered that modern driving habits (tailgating at speed in most urban settings!!) made the brake lights of the cars ahead hard to see. Accidents resulted.

The insurers inspired Congress to mandate the visible brakelights to help lessen the problem of chain collisions at speed. In many cases, a rear deck brakelight can be seen through the windows of several of the cars ahead. That gives drivers at least a chance to slow down.

Before the advent of rear-deck brakelights I used to drive slightly to the left to see down the row of cars in the fast lane. One day the left breakdown lane was suddenly filled with smoke from out of nowhere and I said to myself "How could there be a fire up ahead on the roadway?"

Then I realized that all the smoke was from a pack of vehicles about six cars ahead where people were jamming on their brakes when a mattress broke loose from the roof a car in the middle lane.

[Don Y]

Today, it would be a one day design project and another for board layout. The biggest issue would be the "politics" of approving a local controller at the lamp/display, itself (it would be silly to run all those individual leads to discrete emitters in the lamp).

I always marveled at the insane complexity of SxS CO's -- all those strowger's clicking away day and night; it's a wonder they weren't in a state of continual disrepair... that the system EVER worked, let alone working as well as it did!

Anyone who's serviced EM pinball machines can attest to how temperamental those sorts of systems *can* be. Yet ATT/WE managed to come up with incredibly robust designs the reliability of which folks never even thought of questioning!

As a kid, I built a digital door lock out of some parts rescued from a "pin setter" (bowling alley). No fancy editing capability, display, etc. You just went through the motions and got it right -- or not. I learned that I had to listen carefully to the sound of the sequencer to be sure it advanced properly after each "digit" -- otherwise, a digit could "overwrite" the previous resulting in a "bad code".

The definition of complexity that I most enjoy is: "Something too big to fit in a SINGLE human brain" (tongue-in-cheek). I.e., if *you* can't remember all the details about it, then it's "complex". Conversely, if you *can*, it's "simple".

Conceptually, the (electronic) controls in a car are pretty simple. And, the distributed nature of a CAN implementation enhances this by letting you compartmentalize different "pieces" of the system in your mind: the whatchamacallit handles the doohickie.

Where things get tedious is the considerations for fail-safe operation and the potential interactions between subsystems in a KNOWN failed system (if THIS thing isn't working, what *else* isn't working??). There, the distributed nature works for and against your comprehension -- too many balls to juggle.

Of course. Let The Market work. Of course, the same folks who advocate such things would complain about the Nanny State that results -- despite the fact that The Market is driving it. :-/

SWMBO used to "hang to the left" like this as the only practical solution to "all the big cars" on the roadways, here (her previous car was a "normal" coupe). A lifted pickup in front of you essentially blocks any view of anything ahead of it; your view through their cab is essentially "open sky" (figuratively speaking).

[This was the primary motivation for getting a "taller" vehicle.]

Gee, amazing how that "reaction time" math works, in practice, eh? :>

[danny burstein]

Try something simpler but every bit as fascinating:

- the relay logic used in elevators for, well, almost a century.

Many of those control panels are still ker-chunking away.

[Don Y]

For incandescents, there's no "savings" waiting for the (cheap, inexpensive) incandescent to "burn out" before replacing it. The same is true of the (heavily subsidized) CFL's. I think we paid ~25c for each (?). Of course, the fact that you aren't GAINING any savings on the CFL's means there's less payoff to their replacement with LED units.

Doing a quick mental count, ignoring bulbs *in* appliances (refrigerator, dryer, garage door opener, oven), we have about 65 "bulbs" here (and it's by no means a "big house" -- we just like a LOT of light!) That breaks down to about 15% LED, 10% halogen, 15% incandescent and 60% CFL/fluorescent.

We're waiting for "affordable", dimmable, LED floods to replace the remaining incandescents. And, affordable, BRIGHT, *robust*, "appealing" LED lights to replace all of the 300W halogens. The fluorescents in the garage are waiting for affordable, bright LED floods (though that will probably result in NO net power savings as the tubular fluorescents throw a LOT of light per watt.

I only hope this doesn't make a mess of the "local" RF spectrum :-/

[Don Y]

And energy usage (incl transmission costs) have NOT increased in those

20 years? :> Each rate increase folds the costs of operating the utility into the calculus. Don't think you're getting something for nothing!

In Chicago (or maybe it was Denver?), the utility would give you free light bulbs. But, they were "commercial" grade bulbs (130V) so less efficient (i.e., more power sold to you per unit of light output) AND more durable (so less FREE BULBS that you'll request). "With friends like these..." ;-)

OTOH, the local utilities, here, are quite concerned about all the "savings" that solar installations are taking from their bottom line! And, having a say in the sizing of each solar installation, take pains not to oversize any (I suspect even if you waived any subsidies, they'd resist/fight any installations that threatened to take folks off the grid entirely!)

[Don Y]

Modern elevators are now "energy conscious". They take pains to try to come up with the most effective way of moving "goods" (balancing wait time/inconvenience against energy costs; do you fetch an unoccupied car from the 84th floor to service this

6th floor request? Or, let the folks on 6 wait for the car that's got stops scheduled for 8 and 7 come down to meet them? [Of course, the energy optimized solution is to let the people on 6, wait. But, that could result in the car on 84 just sitting there, idle, for very long periods of time -- waiting for an "efficient" use!]

A lot of "simple" problems are really very fascinating to consider in detail. Esp when they have to operate without knowledge of future events ("Crap! We should have left that car on 84 and expected the folks on 6 to wait; now someone on 85 is calling for service! Up we go, again...")

[Ed Pawlowski]

Depends on which car you are talking about. Sitting in the driver's seat, the light is limited on the left side to it is not in the eyes of the driver in the oncoming car. if you are in Japan, Australia, England,India or parts of Africa reverse the comments.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Yes, the same design that limits the light in the other guy's eyes on a two lane is the cause of the potential blinding when head on. Can't help it.

I imagine the entire assembly can be aimed, but there is no need to do them independently. The factory design should be fixed so they all aim in the proper direction and no need to move just one. Most likely they are in a molded housing.

[Don Y]

Exactly. And, if your lights *seem* brighter than what other folks HAVE BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO, *some* of those folks will indicate this to you -- by flashing *their* "high beams". The same sort of thing happened when halogen lamps came into use. Someone encountering them for the first time would consider them to be (conventional!) lamps "on high".

AFAICT, 2016 is the first model year that our vehicle was released with the LED headlight arrays. In 5 years, folks will have seen enough of them (and similar offerings on other vehicles) that they will just be treated as halogens are, today.

["Oh, he's got those damn bright headlights!" instead of "Hey, buddy, turn off your highs!"]

There is no need to do them independently *if* you design with that in mind! Had they been independent "bulbs", then you must employ some care when designing the "sockets/receptacles" into which they mate -- so a "user" could remove and replace a "light element" and be assured that the new replacement would be sited in exactly the right location.

(imagine being able to replace the *filament* in an old sealed beam headlight -- and having to ensure it was a the proper focus of the reflector!)

Placing the actual LED emitters on the circuit board can be done with high precision (by machine). And, the actual fabrication of the LED "chips" (die) is, of necessity, a very precise operation. So, it's not unreasonable to expect that to be created as a highly repeatable "assembly".

The plastic enclosure to which it mates can likewise be reproduced "identically" -- ensuring that the circuit board(s) fit into precisely the same places in every unit manufactured.

It would be hard to imagine the design of the car would NOT incorporate provisions for aiming. It's too large of an object (the car's body) to get that sort of precise placement of an assembly WITHOUT an adjustment (i.e., that same 1:150 would apply to the precision of any body mounts for the assembly; if you're off 1 part in 150 on an assembly that is ~a few inches tall, you've botched the "aim"!).

And, you have to KNOW that this assembly WILL need to be replaced from time to time (collisions). Expecting the body shop to recreate the front end to that high degree of precision (outlined above) is just delusional! ("Joe, I need a bigger hammer...")

I'll see what my neighbor has to say, later today (too early to bother folks on a Sunday). See how often he cites folks for "headlight violations"...

[HerHusband]

I only have records going back to 1998. My energy "Usage" has gone down.

We averaged about 104 kwh/day in February from 1999 to 2002. We peaked around 134 kwh/day in February 2004, when we were doing construction work. Today we average around 65 kwh/day in February.

My "service fee" was $12.80 in 1998, and is only $12.00 today, so that actually went down slightly too.

Our electric "Rate" has gone up over the years, from 4 cents kwh in 1998 to 8 cents kwh today. But, costs for everything else (food, gas, clothing, etc.) have gone up too.

Of course operating costs are rolled into our electric bills. As you say, nothing is free.

I can see that becoming an issue at some point, but around here it hasn't been enough of an issue to worry about. They may lose a few customers out of thousands. I doubt it is much of a concern at this point.

Besides, most solar systems feed the surplus back into the grid, so the power company is getting extra energy that they didn't have to generate.

Anthony Watson

[HerHusband]

While LED's do use slightly less energy than CFL's, I've been switching to LED's for other reasons.

The CFL's are rather dim when we turn them on, especially on cold mornings. LED's are full brightness instantly.

Our heavily used CFL's tend to burn out every 3-5 years or so. Many are not very easy to replace (vaulted ceiling over a bed or something). I'm hoping the LED's last longer and won't need replacing as often.

Anthony Watson

[rbowman]

The electric company mailed out a big box of CFL's a few years back but this time they just sent 2 LEDs. I've got a dual bulb fixture in the bathroom and put a LED in one side. At 50 degrees it definitely beats the CFL by a couple of seconds. I'd gotten used to the CFL lag but having them side by side makes it stand out.

[Ralph Mowery]

I like the slow turn on of the CFL at night in the bathroom, but that is all.

A few years back our electric company (Duke Enegery)sent out about 10 or 12 CFL bulbs, but I have not heard of any LEDs being sent out yet.

[Frank]

I'm basically doing the same. I still have several "super" incandescent bulbs that use higher molecular weight inert gas, not sure which, that lets filament last longer. These bulbs are about 40 years old and are in infrequently used fixtures like a remote powder room.

Yet to use an LED bulb yet and still have many CFL's.

A few CFL's are hummers and very annoying, like tinnitus. I had one batch that was so white I could not use inside and relegated to the front porch.

I once heard that only 14% of total household consumption of electricity was from lighting, so you can reach a point of diminishing returns in replacing old cheap incandescents with expensive, for now, LED's.

I'm also sold on using LED flashlights exclusively but have had to toss a few, not because bulb gave out, but mechanical switches went bad.

[Don Y]

There's actually a usage related "green" fee in ours. No idea what they cram into that justification...

Our electric consumption has slowly crept upwards. Primarily a result of the various pieces of equipment that I use. Summer months are roughly double Winter months. Holiday season is a "winter exception" as I do a lot of baking (electric oven).

I think we pay 5.5c just for *delivery*; another 3 for KWHr used. Plus assorted taxes, etc. IIRC, last month was ~$200.

I'd guesstimate about 20% of homes in our neighborhood have PV panels. Utility is already talking of charging a monthly "solar fee" -- justified by claiming solar users are unduly benefitting from the AVAILABILITY of the grid as a fallback in non-producing hours. As well as only reimbursing cogeneration costs at the "power" rate (yet selling you back "your" electricity later that evening at the power+distribution rate.

[Did you notice the relative costs of our distribution and power rates, above? :> ]

I.e., here, they not only want to exploit solar to defer adding additional generation capability -- but, also want to make money on it! :>

They don't seem to feel they are benefitting. Or, just seem to want to benefit *more*! :>

[Robert Green]

Various jurisdictions handled things in different ways but ask yourself: "if the power company had the choice of reaching into its own profits or the customer's pocket to pay for the bulbs, what would most companies do?" In some jurisdictions the charges were slip-streamed into operational costs and very hard to track. The company in the article below even tried to charge customers for the amount the CFL bulbs would be saving!!!!!

Here is an article explaining what happened in my area (there are many similar stories across the nation):