How much are you really paying for electricity?

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

I should have written Services instead of Labor and this is from

which may or be generally applicable, but I'll project that it is. So I was right and wrong. Shipping is tax free, handling isn't

Shipping and Handling Common carrier transportation charges from a vendor to a purchaser are not taxable if the charges are separately stated. Common carriers include UPS, FedEx, US Mail, freight lines, etc. Sometimes common carriers add a hazard charge, insurance charge, or something similar, none of which are taxable.

Delivery charges are taxable when a vendor uses their own vehicle to deliver the item purchased. For example, if Sears delivers a refrigerator.

Handling charges are taxable. Shipping and handling charges when billed as a lump sum are treated as taxable, even though the actual shipping charges are not technically taxable.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Why not ask the regulators why they let the power companies screw you? As a typical homeowner, you've seen very little of what is really going on. Try buying power for even a small industrial user and you'll be begging to have the old system back.

How much power will you be using on a daily bases for the duration of your three year contract?

Then you have scenarios like: Yes, we know that week you only used 10,000KW per day, but you said you wee going to use 15,000KW and since you did not notify us 30 days ahead, we're going to charge you for it anyway.

Oh, you used 18,000KW instead of the 15k contracted. Sure, we supplied it but we have to charge you this penalty and higher rate.

Natural gas is just as bad. You can get some really low rates in summer if you have the right contract. That contract though, may stipulate that you stop using gas completely if they call you at any time with four hours notice. You must have an alternate source of energy (usually oil) or you just shot your plant down.

[tangerine3]

I have to pay for meter rental. $25 a month above the electric usage. I have several electric meters in my garage which came off houses that were being demolished. I called the power company and told them that they can come get their meter, and I will use my own. Of course they said they can not do that. When I asked why, they said that their meter is the only kind that will work. I told them that my meter is exactly the same kind, and I'll bring it to their office and show it to them. After a big run-around on the phone, I had some guy who claimed to be the president and he said that they are not allowed to use any meters except their own, and that I am not allowed to use mine. When I asked why, he said "sorry, that's the rule we must follow and I can not change it".

In other words, they can rip me off $25 a month just because they can! That's $300 a year going in their pockets for a meter that probably only cost them a one time fee of $100, and every year they take $300 for that same meter. I'm seriously looking into my own generator along with solar panels.

Just to add to this, a neighbor has 3 meters on his farm, and is paying $75 a month for them. One is for his house, another for a rental house, and the 3rd for his barn. He pays the electric for the rental house as part of the rent, and all he has in his barn are lights and a few heaters for his chickens. I told him to at least get rid of the barn meter and put it on his own house meter. I'll be helping him do that this summer. I also explained to him that he can put all 3 on the same meter and still put his own meter (after the one from the power company) to monitor what the tenants use. He'll be saving $50 a month / $600 a year.

[Caesar Romano]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:46:44 -0400, Joe wrote Re Re: How much are you really paying for electricity?:

Well said.

[trader4]

No one ever said market forces or free economies are perfect. Like everything else, they are not. But they are the best, most efficient and successful system anyone on this planet has found. Where liberals go wrong is they find anything that has a bad outcome, whether in free markets or society and instantly assume that govt control or another govt program is the answer. Yet, they never question the high failure rate and inefficiency of govt, which has produced results far worse than Enron.

[trader4]

You think maybe some of that might be the result of govt regulation? For example, it was the Obama administration that is shoving smart meters down our throats, with the intent of monitoring your usage and charging different rates based on what you do, whether you use according to what they think you should use, etc. And utilities are being forced to buy less carbon based energy and more renewable. So, it would not surprise me at all to find out that a good part of what you are seeing is because of regulation, not de-regulation. There have been plenty of changes besides partial de-regulation that have occured in the last couple of decades.

Well, yeah, I guess if you want that low rate, locked in, etc, there are some conditions that come with it. No surprise there. Are you claiming if I have a company running glass blowing ovens I can't just buy nat gas like everyone else, ie not at the locked rate? No such problems here in NJ and right now nat gas prices are the lowest they've been in many years.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Varies by state, but in MA, it was about 8 or 10 years ago it started. It is not about regulation or de-regulation, it is about who is going to control the flow and take your money. Why let them utilities have it when brokerage firms can get in on the act and resellers and speculators can make millions.

Many ways to buy. If you are a really large user, you may be buying on a daily basis from whoever offers the best deal of the day or hour.

Cut offs are for the low cost buyer willing to take a risk and be shut down. This only happens in cold weather when demand goes very high during a particularly cold period. It is not a matter of having the gas, it is the ability to move it to where needed. Shut one smallish industrial boiler down and 100 houses have more to use.

[krw]

^more

Enron *was* a failure of government, just as the housing market crash was a failure of government.

Only a leftist moron would disallow futures trading by power companies, for example. Forcing them to buy on the spot market is just demanding that some one else fill that void, at the rate-payers' expense.

[krw]

It *couldn't* have something to do with government, then.

At least in some cases it's because the utilities aren't allowed to.

If you are a large user, you're probably buying in the futures market, you so detest.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

[Ed Pawlowski]

.

No, just pointing that it is a "thing", another option. It is just not so simple as compared to the small home or business user. With a mild winter, it is a good thing with no down time.

[krw]

Sure, but it allows the market to decide priorities. I see that as a *good* thing. No down-side at all.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

Even if you found the regulatory loophole that would allow you to use your own meter, they would charge you a large "inspection" fee to validate that the meter is acceptable and then a monthly "insurance" or some other type of fee

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

Not so. Enron was a perfect example of what the free market will always do if given a chance with little actual downside to doing it...manipulate the market. Enron did it with electricity and many, many brokers did it with housing...with the collusion of the banks

[trader4]

$25 a month for a residential meter rental sounds steep. Curious, which electric company is this?

[George]

Only if your point of reference is "dittohead skool".

Since man has been on the earth there are those without a moral compass who will do whatever is necessary to enrich themselves.

Suppose we went with a real free market? How do you think it would work out if there were no weights and measures laws and inspections? How about dropping licensing requirements for doctors? How about dropping drug laws relating to purity, sterility and strength? How about dropping food and meat inspection requirements? How about dropping safety and licensing rules regarding planes and pilots?

[George]

Thats pretty much how it works here. Last year the disconnect on the primary side of the transformer serving our house totally self destructed. I called in with the pole number and a description of what happened. Two hours later a truck showed up. I asked the guy why and he said "they closed the Smithville maintenance building and the same staff serves four times as much area".

[George]

Rare how? The very large utility serving our area even morphed their name and logo to indicate they aren't the "old electric company" .

[George]

The new thing now to be very aware of is that some of the "new, reinvented" companies collect information (probably from accident reports) and send a bill claiming you damaged their equipment. I know two very sensible people who got such bills. One slid into a curb in an ice storm and another was pushed into a guard rail.

[George]

Not Ed but that is a perfect example of the "free market" at work. Nothing regulates such contracts. A family member is responsible for managing the utilities at a facility with mega watt consumption and he has shown me some of their agreements.

[George]

Same in PA. You make your deal with the brokers and then the pipeline folks transport it.