It's not unusual in a new development for HOA agreements to only be partially complete when the first homes are sold. They add the rules after the fact.
Unfortunately, you sign a document that says, "and any other rules that this HOA may deem appropriate in the future" or some such boilerplate.
Thank you ever so much in your reporting in a much more accurate and in depth manner of the judge's decision. This gives me information I can take to several HOA people I know who are in this battle.
Steve
It's not unusual in a new development for HOA agreements to only be partially complete when the first homes are sold. They add the rules after the fact.
Unfortunately, you sign a document that says, "and any other rules that this HOA may deem appropriate in the future" or some such boilerplate.
reply:
We do surveys all the time of properties that are not "built out". It is impossible to get the projected areas 100% correct, but they have us do it. On the one hand, this is a good thing, as the buyers of undeveloped properties will have something to look at regarding projected costs and dues, but on the downside, the people who already own do not have established dues, and are buying a pig in a poke. In Nevada, the dues by law can not increase more than 25% of the previous year's dues for the next year. The other down side is that we may figure too high a dues fee, and it is unlikely that any HOA will reduce their dues for any reason.
Steve
In many areas the only new homes you can buy are in deed restricted/HOA areas. There is a desire by cities to foist off on the property owners the "governing" of themselves so they city can escape as much financial involvement as possible. I don't think it's even possible in the larger cities in AZ to find a new home that isn't under an HOA. When we bought our home new about 20 years ago it was in one of the few subdivisions that did not have an HOA. There are "deed restrictions", but not too bad, but no real enforcement method. there are provisions for the property owners to form an HOA if they wish but if they chose to do so they cannot assess any dues. I've never understood why anyone would want an HOA. The typical dues are anywhere from $100 to $200 a month and I've heard of them as high as $600 a month. At $100 a month it's like adding around $20,000 to your mortgage. Why not just buy a house in a $20,000 better neighborhood.
Many of the idiots that I have known would fit right in.
I will NEVER..NEVE..NEVER live where I have to deal with a HOA.
TMT
On Sat 20 Dec 2008 01:46:48a, Too_Many_Tools told us...
Then those of us who prefer some order and civility in our "controlled" neighborhoods won't have to put up with the likes of you. We should both be happy! :-)
Plebe
Of course it would be your loss. ;
My next door neighbor would be penalized by any HOA. He has 2 cars, van, two trucks, camper, snowmobile, motorcycle, tractor, wood pile, probably a few things I'm forgetting.
He cuts my lawn, raises our vegetables, blows my leaves. I hope he never moves away.
It doesn't have to be a choice between an HOA and a slum - there's a third alternative.
If you have a neighbor who doesn't muster up to the majority opinion regarding decorum, a few neighbors can visit the miscreant and beat him so badly he can't even moan.
This technique is cheaper and more effective than the legal machinations and expense of an HOA. And infinitely more satisfying...
After living in condo hell, I agree. There are good HOA's especially for seniors, which probably rise to the level of "assisted living" - club houses with activities for all, pool, lawn games, playing cards or chess, shopping trips. But then one overweight dog can ruin the scheme.
On Sat 20 Dec 2008 02:10:20a, Too_Many_Tools told us...
I doubt it. ;)
Plebe
On Sat 20 Dec 2008 05:37:08a, Ed Pawlowski told us...
I suppose a lot depends on how you grew up and what expectations you have. I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood where the lawns were manicured, homes were well-maintained, cars/vehicles were in the garage, neighbors were friendly, and strangers were civil. People that had wood burning fireplaces did have woodpiles, but they were discretely place somewhere in the back yard. An overflow of vehicles and other "grown up" toys were kept somewhere off site. If people had vegetable gardens, those were also in an appropriate location in the rear of the yard.
There was no HOA and no need for one. It was simply a matter of people having dignity, self-respect and respect for others, and an appropriate sense of values.
I have been fortunate to live in similar neighborhoods most of my life, and only two of them had HOAs. One of those was a brand new community where the HOA was overly zealous and even tried to impose "rules" that didn't exist in the by-laws or in the CC&R. I was secretary on the board of that HOA and witnessed at lease two such rediculous attempts. This was a small community of 36 unique "French country homes". One home owner had a very attractive weathered copper weathervane installed on their brick chimney. The board president sent a letter stating that it had to be removed. The homeowner was quite upset and came to me to discuss it. We sat together looking for any evidence prohibiting such an addition, but could find none. I brought this to the attention of the board, but they maintained their position. Although the community was fully wired for cable and everyone used it, there was a provision in the CC&R that allowed for television antennas that could be as large as 3 x 4 feet and on a mast as high as 20 feet above the roof. I privately pointed this out to the homeowner and suggested that they tell the board they would be happy to remove the weathervane, and instead, install the maximum allowed antenna. The board relented. In another case, a decorated WWII veteran was told to remove a
20 ft tall flagpole bearing the American flag. The board's rationale was that there was a flag mounted in the center of each cul-de-sac. I pointed out to the board that there was no reference to this in the CC&R and that, furthermore, it was probably illegal to prevent an American citizen from flying the flag, they again relented. After those two incidences, the board's demeaner changed altogether, and it was a very pleasant place to live.The other community with an HOA where I lived was much older and had either never had these growning pains or had long ago outgrown them. They simply did their job, and quite reasonably. My only encounter with them was when I applied for a permit to build a shed in the back yard. The only requirements they had was that the shed had to be built of wood, have roofing that was compatible with the roofing of the house, and that it had to be within the sight lines of the house when looking from the street. I did not find that to be unreasonable.
Now I live in a neighborhood with no HOA in an atmosphere where "anything goes", and believe me it does. Many homes have numerous vehicles parked all other the yards, many yards are unkempt, usually full of weeds and unmown grass. The area is generally unsightly. It's no wonder that anyone who comes to our house (visitors, service and construction people, etc.) always tell us we have the best looking house/yard in the neighborhood. I don't even consider this a compliment since it is just what I consider average. For nearly six months the neighbor directly across the street kept a tractor trailer parked in front of their house. We could barely get out of our driveway. Other neighbors had complained about it to the owner, but with no results. I finally called the sheriff's department and they were told to remove it immediately and permanently. All this in a neighborhood where the least expensive home sold for ~$200K. We are fortunate, however, to have very nice neighbors immediately on either side of us. They are friendly, kind, and helpful.
I think it was a mistake for us to move here, but financially we can't move in the forseeable future. If we ever do, it will definitely be to a community where there is an HOA. I'd rather deal with those issues than with the ones I'm dealing with.
Plebe
I live in a 1960s era subdivision with no HOA. It's a pretty nice neighborhood, most everyone takes reasonable care of their house and yard.
The city has ordinances about the basics, keeping up your yard, not being a junkyard, not parking on the grass, etc. No nosy nitpicky crap about how tall the grass must be, what color the house can be, what you can park in your driveway, etc. There are RVs and boats parked here and there, there's at least one house painted yellow and purple (that's mine!), yards range from bowling greens to waterless desertscapes. It's an interesting neighborhood with lots of variety. I'm OK with how my neighbors keep their property, and they're OK with how I keep mine. As it should be.
I wouldn't be happy if my neighbors were trailer trash, but they're not. I also wouldn't be happy with neighbors who NEEDED to have an HOA FORCING them to act like decent neighbors...mine manage to do it all on their own. I like that.
Good discussion.
Hide quoted text -
Again a good discussion.
In many areas, having a HOA will cause potential buyers to NOT buy into an area.
And in this housing market (and for the foreseeable future), that is the kiss of death to anyone who wants to sell their home.
TMT
Or any number of gassy seniors. ;
You make a good argument for when laws need to be applied...and when they should not be.
My opinion is that ones interest should STOP at your property line and means of access to your property. If someone is blocking your access...that is a problem. If someone wants to use their property in a certain manner (which they are paying taxes on..not you or the HOA), then they should be left alone. In my experiences over the years, it is ALWAYS the busybodies of the neighborhood who are the first to scream about their neighbor while ignoring the fact that they are the worst offenders.
If I EVER am forced to form a HOA, I will have it stated in the bylaws that the HOA can be sued for harassment and the legal costs of the one bringing the suit will be paid by the HOA. When you have something to lose, everyone behaves better.
TMT
You do realize that having the "nicest looking house" means $$$ when you sell in the future?
Perhaps you should thank the "troublemaker next door". ;
Plebe wrote in news:Xns9B7A14C5C431plebeyahoocom@69.16.185.247:
HOA = robotic brain dead idiots. Wait until the HOA tells you what color hair you can have. Or they just don't like your face.
oooooo, then baby will cry, cry, cry.
So, park it on the lawn instead.
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