HarborFreight - am I just unlucky?

[blueman]

No flame intended, but you truly live in a fantasy world and have little if any understanding of economics, human nature, and recent Chinese history if you believe any or all of the following: 1. Chinese workers are worse off because of exports to the Nikes and Home Depots of the world

[Fact, China has increased its PPP (purchasing power parity) manifold over the past 2 decades due to its rapid industrialization and export-driven economy. While the rich have (as always) perhaps benefited disproportionately, there is now a rapidly growing middle class and a much less impoverished working class]

1. Chinese factory workers are slaves

[Fact, Chinese workers are fleeing subsistance farming jobs in rural areas to come to the cities in search of factory jobs. They desire these jobs so much that they risk arrest and deportation back to the rural areas -- hardly the sign of true slavery]

1. If US consumers only were willing to pay more, then all the problems would go away.

[Fact, instead of the "profits" from cheaper production flowing to the consumer, they would simply be pocketed by the factory owners or other middlemen. The "slaves" would be unlikely to get even a token more. Finally, while it is a nice Utopian dream, do you think a sizeable number of Americans will voluntarily pay more to help unknown faces in some far off country and culture? The automobile example you cite, actually proves the opposite. In that case US consumers stopped buying from Detroit automakers because they got better value overseas, just like they do now buying from China. The solution then as now is to get US industry and workers to deliver more value for the buck to be competitive with overseas production . Instead, you are asking US consumers to voluntarily choose and pay for a worse value. Good luck!]

1. China should just institute a fair minimum wage and legislate better working conditions for workers [Fact, in a global economy, the jobs will just go elsewhere to markets where labor is cheaper and more flexible. So instead of having millions of Chinese with low paing jobs, we will now have millions more Chinese literrally starving from lack of jobs. After all, why do you think these jobs "left" the US in the first place? -- because the US is too expensive for certain types of basic labor]
2. The US should just "ban" or "tax" imports from countries with unfair labor conditions.

[Fact, first, we are party to various treaties that do not allow such unilateral actions that have the efect of restricting trade and protecting home industries. Second, the people who believe this are usually the same people who accuse the US of acting unilatterally, being a bully, and generally trying to impose its values and culture on others. Who are we to tell other soverign countries how much to pay their workers? We are hardly talking murder and genocide hear -- just our own self-serving perception of the proper tradeoffs between growth, profits, distribution of income, and worker quality of life. Final restrictions on trade, price controls, and command-and-control market policies always end up hurting more than they help leaving most of us worse off (see, Smoot-Hawley Act of 1930, Nixon's 1970s price controls, the whole Soviet economic "experiment")]

In summary, I believe that those who inveigh against buying from China suffer from one or more of the following afflictions or delusions:

A. Well-meaning limousine liberals whose hearts are in the right place but whose brains aren't -- the "cures" they recommend are unimplementable and would have consequences worse than the "disease".

If you fall in this category, then nothing stops you from buying at discount places and putting aside your savings to donate to some established oversease charity where at least one can be assured that the money goes 100% to the needy. Before you ask others to pay more, try doing so yourself voluntarily first.

B. Disingenous, self-interested labor protectionists who are just interested in propping up overpaid and inefficient US industries.

If you fall in this category, then nothing stops you and your friends from paying more to buy American. Also, you can lobby American organized labor to stop opposing reforms that impove efficiency and competitiveness of US industries.

C. Disingenous, self-interested foreign policy protectionists who fear China's rise to power.

If you fall in this category, then you too can always pay more to buy American. Also, it behooves you to do everything possible to improve the competitiveness and efficiency of the American workforce. The only way for the US to maintain its economic position is to out-innovate and stay ahead of the competition -- trying to hold others back is at best a small temporary measure that won't make a dent in the inexorable development of 1 billion Chinese who would love nothing more than to have the wealth-creation opportunities enabled by a US-style free market system. China.

[Doug Kanter]

I appreciate what you've written, but my main objection to patronizing that country is based on just one thing: I don't like the way the country's run. It is a dictatorship. I don't expect every country to mirror our system, but at the same time, the other extreme cannot be justified simply because there's something good on HBO tonight and nobody wants to think about where their clothing comes from.

[Gort]

When I read something that makes no sense at all I have to question what the intent is/was.

Are you implying that you just accept such garbage ?

[Gort]

Yep, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Let her starve, or support slavery. Nice choices.

[Doug Kanter]

Nothing is absolute when it comes to news from China. Foreign reporters have "minders", whether they know it or not, and the citizens themselves may or may not be free to talk. You know all, right?

Because you DO know all this, how can you make an extreme statement and say that an entire article is fiction? Or, perhaps I'm wrong. Do you know nothing about China? Do you think it functions the same as Kansas?

[blueman]

Nothing wrong with your opions there. You are entitled to put your money where your mouth is and buy elsewhere or contribute to solve the problem.

I just don't think it is realistic or appropriate for one group to impose their political or moral opinions on others. If enough people think and act like you, then a market will arise in the US to supply non-Chinese origin (but likely higher priced goods).

My only intended points were the following:

1. Most people are quite happy with and benefit economically from the the tradeoff of accepting low priced goods, even if sometimes lower quality and even if manufactured in a non-democratic country
2. The market goes where there is money to be made and politicians generally don't want to swim upstream against the economic interests of their constituents (see #1 above)
3. The wishes or actions of a relatively small minority of people (see #1 above) are unlikely to influence either the market, the US government, the Chinese government, or the Chinese-based manufacturers (see #2 above)
4. Boycotts and trade barriers often hurt the people you are trying to help more than they help them (e.g., workers lose their jobs, Americans pay higher prices).
5. While I too am troubled by the rise of a rich, powerful, populous, non-democratic, and potentially antagonistic China, I don't think that buying or not buying Harbor Freight tools will have any impact, even if millions of like-minded people did the same. I would rather focus my efforts on working harder and smarter here while creating more wealth for me and those who do business with me.

[Doug Kanter]

OK, but you know what? Some products would NOT be that much more expensive. I think some of the problem is that American distributors may be out of touch with what the market will bear. A few years ago, I wrote the the CEO of Lands End. I was curious what their $12 t-shirts would cost if they were made in the states again. Response: about $18.00. I wrote back saying that I had LE t-shirts that were 10 years old and looked new, so the six bucks really didn't matter to me. No response.

The extra profit goes to the distributor, and we have no choice but to buy foreign made stuff. Try buying a pair of American made casual or dress shoes these days.

[Vic Dura]

Well, you are right about that. I was overly-broad.

Sorry, I don't watch or listen to either of them.

See 1) above.

[Vic Dura]

Relatively speaking, one might say the same about the USA. Compared to the freedoms that I remember we had 50 years ago, I would consider this country to now be a police state and well on it's way to a dictatorship. If you don't believe that, try commercial air travel.

OTOH, from what I've read about China, it is *much* more free and economically vibrant now than it was 50 years ago. Not as free as we are now by a long shot; but they are gaining ground while we are loosing ground. Soon we will be passing each other: they on the way up, us on the way down. It's not the first reversal of rolls in the history civilizations, and it won't be the last.

The excess you describe are the last-gasp efforts of the old-order trying to hold onto power by chanting the law-and-order mantra. It works here and it works there too.

[Charles Bishop]

Perhaps if more people buy from Chine, the additional money will raise the economic well-being of the citizens. If so, it is unlikely there can be a dictatorship with a large middle class.

[Doug Kanter]

Yeah...I've heard that cash can change a country. I'm still not sure I believe it. It depends on where the cash goes. Perhaps China needs to go through a labor revolution like this country did 100 years ago. Hey...wait a minute....wasn't Communism supposed to be a labor revolution? :-)

[Doug Kanter]

So, why the knee-jerk reaction about the NY Times? It's simply absurd.

[Gort]

The "in-country" reporters may well have "minders", but the newspaper does not. The reporter submitted an article, but it's up to the Editor, Managing Director, or whomever to check for accuracy.

Any paper that cannot/will not correct obvious mistakes is worthless.

As to China I know as much as I need to. It's a Socialism government run by a Dictator. Those have been around for quite a while, and none have ever been good for the regular people.

[Doug Kanter]

Good! Let's look a few details, then. The article says judges are untrained, and chosen by local party bosses to do their bidding. If you disagree with that, explain why.

[Duane Bozarth]

Doug Kanter wrote: ...

Did you see the new report the other night on the couple in Beijing? Showed a plush high-rise condo (they said $5M, but I'm not sure they got it right, but whatever the actual figure was it would rival anything anywhere in NY or London) w/ the gal sitting at her grand piano and all...she and her husband had just bought the place w/ their earnings a "business consultants". The development of a middle/upper class w/ property rights will invevitably, in my view, bring the end of the totalitarian government.

[dadiOH]

Which - as dictatorships go - is a relatively benign one and which is

*far* better than anything else the Chinese had for decades preceding.

-- dadiOH ____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at

[ds549]

i bought some items from them long time ago. no shipping problems except it took weeks ,and with the tax and surcharge ect i didnt feel i got a good deal for the junk they sell.. if you really want to know what somethings worth , look on ebay. lucas

[Gort]

I don't disagree at all. That's how most "isms" work. The U.S. judges that "legislate from the bench" follow their Party Politics. Why they remain on the bench is a mystery, as they are JUDICIAL Branch, not LEGISLATIVE Branch of Government, whose job it is to make laws. Judicial Branch is supposed to see that the law is followed/obeyed in court. Judicial is doing their thing, which is not Constitutionally legal. That's the same Constitution they swear to faithfully uphold.

[Doug Kanter]

Good! Now we've established that some of the article is accurate. We can now assume that all of it is accurate, since neither you nor I have any way of proving otherwise.

Have a good day.

[Sam Marlison]

I am old enough to remember when Made in Japan meant junk. I have seen an improvement in Chinese goods already. When the Chinese get their act together they will be making products of high quality. The Asian unskilled workforce has a much better attitude than the unskilled workforce we have in this country.

Sam