Electrical advice-30A circuits

Jan 30, 2017 81 Replies

Howdy,



Sis had me look at an electrical problem she had - it turned out to be a loose wire. However, when I was poking around, I discovered a couple of odd things and need to know what to tell her what to do.



There are two circuits I discovered that appear to have 120V outlets and switches on a 30A breaker. I didn't know enough to tell her whether this was allowed or not - I really suspect not but wanted to ask here first. My first thought was if there was a problem with, say a drill motor on this circuit, any problem with it wouldn't be enough to trip the breaker.



This most likely resulted from the previous owner hiring incompetent workers and they did poor work, just to get electrical power to the shed. I found a power cord used as electrical cable so they didn't have to break into the wall - it ran from an (E) outlet (connected by stripping the wires and connected to the screws on the outlet) along the wall to a multiplug on its end so that power could be had at the other side of the shed. I removed this of course. So, poor work in other places wouldn't surprise me.



Then, what should she do? I thought getting the circuits tracked down and then replacing the 30A breaker with two 15's or 20s, depending on the wiring and what's on them. I'd like her to have some idea before she has an electrician come out.



Also, for me - I used a voltage tester when looking around - it was the kind that chirps and lights up when it's near wiring that has power. It also chirps and lights up if you stick one end into an outlet.



However I found that there could also be transient chirps if I moved it quickly past a piece of metal and when I was close to wiring rather than very close to it. In one case, this made it difficult to tell which outlet or switch had the power. Was I using it correctly?



Charles


The short answer is if it is 14ga copper, it gets a 15 and if it is

12ga copper it gets a 20. Even if it is 10ga copper, you can't hook a regular 5-15 receptacle to it.

Hopefully half the house isn't on that circuit, in which case it could be easily rectified. Sounds like it's time to get a pro in there, find out what all is wrong, before something bad happens.

Look at the size of the wires connected to the breakers. If #12 thena

20 amp breaker would be the max and if # 14 then 15 amp would be the max. Unless there is some very specila case, a 30 amp 120 volt breaker would not be used.

You are using the tester correctly. They often beep if moved fast near objects. I seldom use one but if they do light up there is some kind of electrical field , even if it is static electricity like you get if you rub your feet acrost the carpet. I often just rub them on my shirt just to test them. Usually sticking it in one side of the outlet it should beep and not the other if there is power on the circuit, as one is the hot and one the neutral.

Americans make things so complicated. In the UK, we have all our outlets (or half of them, on two circuits) on a 30A breaker. Each appliance has a fuse in the plug, dependant on what that appliance is.

As pointed out previously, it took all the Queens horses and all the King's men a week to find the fault in Buckingham palace when one tea pot shorted out. Must be swell screwing around in the dark too, when all the lights go out because they are on one breaker. Why are you so backwards and cheap over there?

I bet you don't have 4.8 KVA homes as the defacto standard with some double that. We also have more required circuits. (2 in the kitchen, one in the laundry and one in the bathroom as a minimum plus the general lighting and appliance circuits. What is your typical main breaker?

Doesn't happen, as we have a fuse in every plug, rated lower than the main one. If my kettle shorts out, the fuse in the plug blows and everything else keeps on going.

No need for so many circuits. We typically have one (or two in larger homes) 30A 240V circuit(s) for outlets, one 30A 240V circuit for the cooker, one 15A 240V circuit for the water heater, and two 5A 240V circuits for lighting.

100A = 24KVA. You really run your whole home on just 4.8KVA?! I can exceed that by a factor of 2.5 with my cooker alone. The shower another factor of 2 over that.

just for fun somone hangs a big picture and causes a short on a 30 amp circuit with 30 amp breaker.......

sounds like a excellent way to start a fire

You folks just do not have as many electrical appliances I guess. To start with I doubt air conditioning is that prevalent. In most of the US it is standard equipment. Our "cookers" (ranges) are typically 40a or maybe 50a. If you can't get natural gas, you will have electric water heaters and maybe even electric heat. Add a swimming pool, electric dryer, spa and perhaps a shop, then the loads add up fast.

Sorry I dropped a decimal place 48KVA.

24KVA is the minimum service you can have for anything, most are 48KVA (200a) and a large home will have 400a (96KVA)

In US terms we would call your ring circuit a feeder and the branch circuit is the cord beyond the plug. (last overcurrent device in the circuit)

Having any standard outlets on a 30A breaker is both dangerous and a code violation. There should be two 15A or 20A (single) breakers. Wire gauge determines if it should be 15A or 20A. #12 wire is 20A #14 wire is 15A

(15A breakers can be used on *either* wire gauge)

From what you said, I agree you need to have an electrician check out that wiring. It sounds like there are other violations and dangers, and they should be taken care of soon.

I like to advocate DIY repairs, but unless you're experienced with wiring, call an expert. It's a lot cheaper to hire an electrician than to replace a house and it's contents after a fire. (not to mention possibly loss of life).

My double electric oven is 40A, IDK what the electric cooktop is, but probably 30A? AC breaker is 50A, probably only pulls half that when it up and running. Hot tub is on a 40A. Electric dryer is 30A.

Like you say, mine is 48KVA, I have friends who have larger homes with 72KVA.

IDK that it's much different than doing the same thing with a 20A circuit. You'd get a bit more arc for milliseconds, but it doesn't seem that much worse at 30A.

Forgot that it's also 220V, instead of 120V, so I guess the available energy for arcing is 3X what it is here with a 120V, 20A circuit, so I agree, you have a point. How much more likely that is to start a fire in the milliseconds before the breaker trips, IDK. It would depend on what's around to ignite.

Cooktop is usually 20a but may spec a 30a circuit. A new 3 ton AC pulls 15-16a at the condenser (ampacity of conductor 19.5a, 35a breaker) and another 3-4a at the air handler with a typical 10kw heat strip (non coincidental with the AC) 60a breaker. My hot tub is on a

70a with 11kw of heat. The dryer is on a 30a and usually pulls around 22

New 5 ton here. 50A breaker, and like I said, guessing maybe 25A, but maybe it's less. It sure uses a lot less electricity than the old one.

and another 3-4a at the air handler with a typical 10kw heat

Sounds about right. All of that info should be on the sticker on the condenser. That is the guide for sizing conductors and breakers. This is a link to the UL marking guide that explains what is on that sticker

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I assumed it was due to what Tony644 said about ferret core transformers -- maybe the gerbil core ones were too short for the longer wavelength.

[snip]

If you have one of those non-trip breakers.

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