a problem with electric meters?

[dpb]

CA? I believe I recall.

TX is also not very well connected to the rest of the US grid so if they do have a problem they don't have much in the way of interconnects to make up the difference.

There are always the occasional "gotcha's" -- during the cold streak spoken of earlier, it was an unusual event and did cause some plants to either go offline or not be available owing to freezing of lines that simply weren't designed for the issue as it is such a rare event wasn't accounted for as a design feature.

Also, sometimes a few plants will be off for either scheduled or unscheduled outages and so not available and if the external event happens during one of these times there just may not be enough standby.

One interesting event in TX panhandle about four(?) years ago had to do w/ the new wind generation becoming a significant fraction of the mix--the particular utility was taking about 20% from wind during a very hot period when an unforecasted small wind shift line moved across the area of the wind farm and winds went from 15-20mph to near zero in a couple of minutes. The resulting drop in generation was so rapid it nearly brought the entire region down before they could ramp up enough generation and shed enough load. They managed to save it, but it was close...I'll see if I can find the post-mortem report again--I posted it once but it was shortly after so has been at least a couple of years since...

--

[gfretwell]

I think I heard on he history channel that Texas is not on the national grid at all. They are totally self sufficient. (as well as that works for them)

[Jim Yanik]

[e-mail] (Gordon Burditt) wrote in news:Jd2dnc8yvYMLnV7SnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

not all electric utility area grids are connected to the "national grid",if there is such a thing. It's probably more like several areas have their own local grids. trying to transfer power across the entire US would be wasteful and inefficient.

[George]

Actually pretty efficient if HV DC lines are used. But there is no national grid. Our supplier was one of the founders of and belongs to the PJM (originally PA-NJ-MD) interconnect:

It now covers 13 states and DC. According to Wikipedia it serves 51 million customers and has 167 GW (GigaWatts) of generating capacity.

[dpb]

On 5/28/2012 10:29 AM, [e-mail] wrote: ...

That may have been accurate for the time (it was history, right? :) ) but not entirely free of interconnects now.

Just posting from Wikipedia summary for lack of ambition to actually get the precise time frame...but it's basically correct.

"In 1962, when the Eastern Interconnection was established in its current form, The Interconnected Systems Group (composed of Southern and Midwestern utility companies), the PJM Interconnection, and the Canada-United States Eastern Interconnection (CANUSE) formed the Interconnection Coordination Committee to recommend an informal operations structure, which led to the formation of the North American Power Systems Interconnection Committee (NAPSIC). NAPSIC eventually grew to also include the Texas Interconnection and most of the companies in what is today the Western Electricity Coordinating Council (WECC), operating within the Western Interconnection."

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[dpb]

On 5/28/2012 10:11 AM, dpb wrote: ...

Here's one of the winter 2011 incident reports; I've not found my link to the above incident again at the moment...

[T. Keating]

3a) Many of these new smart meters are programmed to read high with certain loads. They don't give credit for power returned to the grid. Resulting in bills 5 to 15% higher than previous.. 3b) The Filters in Smart meters are not as good as those in old meters and can result in gross errors.. 3c) Like all modern electronics.. Limited lifespan.. 5-7 years.. And when they fail the customer is likely to get screwed..

4) Can turned on and off the customers electric service remotely. 5) Can remotely switch your service from 220v to 110v. (thus disabling all 220v appliances, A/C, stove, pumps, etc). 6) Wireless protocal is going to be hacked. It's not a matter of if, but when, and by whom. The consequences to society could be enormous.

[T. Keating]

The ones being installed by FPL, 4.3 Million residential meters, can remotely switch the 240v service to 120v, by connecting both legs to the same 120v input. Thus disabling nearly all 220v appliances in the household.

They can also remotely turn on and off the service.

It's just a matter of time before the wireless protocal get's hacked and someone else takes control.

[T. Keating]

That feature is in most smart meters or can be added with a simple download. I know for a fact that FPL's 4.3 million smart meters have that feature. (I talked to GE's tech support, the manufacturer FPL'ssmart meters, about the undocumented ordering features/codes. )

The recharge/reactivation is done wirelessly.

[Home Guy]

Are you saying that smart-meters don't measure inductive, reactive or non-linear loads correctly - such that they err on the side of the utility company?

What returned power?

If you're referring to power generated by the customer (solar, wind, etc) then (a) very few home-owners have a co-gen installation, and (b) those that do are paid by the utility for any power they generate through special feed-in tarrif programs and would have a separate meter installed to measure the feed-in amount.

(other technical reasons - unverified but possibly true)

Beyond those possible technical reasons, smart-meters represesnt a false economy because their installed cost far outweighs any benefit to the residential user in terms of the possible savings they might achieve in time-shifting their electricity usage to reduce peak-load demand for the utility.

[T. Keating]

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)

As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..

I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the GE I-210+ are,

O = AMR, V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor, F2 = Demand limit, J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no=220v appliance operation.) U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric meter.

[dpb]

On 5/30/2012 6:43 AM, T. Keating wrote: ...

I don't see any indication of that in the GE product data sheet. Can you provide a link to that; it seems unlikely design feature to me.

...

If FPL is using a capable-meter and installing the 2-way communications module, then that is a possibility.

Can you confirm which GE model FPL is actually using and which options they bought?

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[dpb]

On 5/30/2012 6:58 AM, T. Keating wrote: ...

Do you know which is the specific model FPL is using (the I-210+ or I-210+c)?

They are prepayment-capable but doesn't mean FPL either ordered it or is planning to.

--

[dpb]

As I read the datasheet the 210+ has both as optional capabilities; I don't follow your above conclusion it's "just" an electronic meter (altho FPL may not have ordered the option is what you're confirming, maybe?)

As say, for any specific install checking the codes on the meters is the way to know what is actually there...of course there still can be more capability available than a utility is using (or may ever use).

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[T. Keating]

FPL is deploying the I-210+ (no C suffix) for nearly all of it's residential customers. ( I refused permission to change out my meter.)

Ordering options on FPL's I-210+ are..

O = AMR, V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor, F2 = Demand limit, J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no=220v appliance operation.) U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

See above.. ..

[dpb]

On 5/30/2012 8:08 AM, T. Keating wrote: ...

Why? (Think you got a slow mechanical? :) )

Won't they just tell you to find another supplier on down the road?

--

[T. Keating]

I haven't see any online document listing the ordering options with their letter designations. For that info you must call them up, and track down the right person.

Ordering options on FPL's GE-210+ residential meters are:

O = AMR, V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor, F2 = Demand limit, J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no=220v appliance operation.) U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.

[T. Keating]

Yup..

Certain motorised devices also act as generators and return a percentage of that energy back to grid in backside(90-180, 270-360 degrees) of each AC -phase.

Instead of getting a credit for that returned energy, you get double billed. (According the GE engineers).

From what I've heard, talking to smart meter installers, they don't change out the meter for net-metering customers who've signed agreements.

That I would agree on. I've been reading my meter daily for last 6 years, so I really don't need the online featues and the loss of privacy.

[T. Keating]

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

I don't want an in-accurate, unreliable, hackable smart meter. That will double bill me for and PV power I push onto the grid. I have PV panels, and UL listed Enphase inverters ready to go, I just haven't put them up.. yet..

Not at this time, since FPL has an exclusive monopoly in their service area.

[T. Keating]

No, I have an accurate mechanical meter..

I don't want an in-accurate, unreliable, hackable smart meter. That will double bill me for any PV power I push onto the grid. I have PV panels, and UL listed Enphase inverters ready to go, I just haven't put them up.. yet..

Not at this time, since FPL has an exclusive monopoly in their service area.