home A/C and R-22 - cost per lb

I don't see that in the installed cost of a new system. The systems today are about the same cost as the ones that they replace, adjusted for inflation. That is if you take an entry level system from 20 years ago, which was 10 SEER and compare it to a 14 SEER system today. Factor in utility rebates, govt rebates, and lower operating costs and they are less expensive than the old ones they replaced.

Nonsense. If a pipe or component is going to fail, it's typically from corrosion, a bad braze joint, etc. And I'd say the probability of that isn't dependent on the system pressure. And if you get a leak, it's not really an efficiency issue, because before very long with a typical leak, it's not going to run anymore.

But who cares? It's that the new R410 systems are a lot more efficient that's the bottom line. Exactly how they got there doesn't matter to the consumer.

You could try it and tell us. If it works you could have a new business. Of course the problem is that a 20 year old system that needs recharging, probably has a serious problem that caused it to need recharging.

Who cares? It's not like a car or power plant that's BURNING fuels that release CO2. Any release of R410 is going to be so small, it's irrelevant, except maybe to an environmental nut.

I never claimed that it did. Nor do I recall seeing manufacturers make that claim. What I see them usually saying is that R410 is environmentally friendly, R22 is phased out, and that the new systems using R22 are a lot more efficient than the old systems.

I guess you could address that to the folks that do the ratings. AFAIK, the only ECM motors used would be for the blower motor in the furnace, if it has one.

Any american who hasn't yet built a reinforced fence or bunker around their ground or roof-mounted AC unit, residential or commercial (or church!), monitored 24/7 with video -> now is the time.

The next wave of "american urban mining" is starting now, and it's being done by out-of-work hvac techs, prowling around in the middle of the night with empty propane tanks - harvesting the R-22 out of your soon-to-be non-working hvac systems...

What answers exactly are "industries" giving that are false? Pretty much what I've heard is that the R410 systems are safe

for the environment because of the R410 and that the systems are a lot more energy efficient than the typical older systems they replace.

Sure, that's part of it. They've also changed and improved other major components too. Larger evaporators, ie N coil instead of A, scroll compressors, etc.

What do you think the cost differential is between what R410 costs and what R22 used to cost prior to the phase out? Allowing for inflation over the last decade, I don't see it as being a huge difference. R410 is probably a little more expensive. But in the overall cost of a repair bill when you need to add enough to matter, it shouldn't make a big difference. Not sure what the issue is that you're referring to with ease of service.

Nice edit, completely changing the context of what I said.

"What answers exactly are "industries" giving that are false? Pretty much what I've heard is that the R410 systems are safe for the environment because of the R410 "

No s*it Sherlock. I've been saying that from the start. The point is that you can get a system today that uses R410, is a lot more efficient than the typical system it replaces and adjusted for inflation, they cost about the same. In other words, all this bitching about R22 vs R410A doesn't matter.

If you have more than a rare failure on brand new compressors, either you're using crap eqpt or you're doing something wrong.

You don't need to get the exact MPG the manufacturer claims to believe that cars that get 25 highway get significantly better mpg than those that are rated 18 mpg.

it matters because if "they" didn't outlaw R22 you could get it at a decent price and that would in many cases be the most economical choice if you have an existing R22 system that needs repair.

the only reason switching to a new system is more economical is because of the artificially high cost of the R22.

the point is that there is no INHERENT economic advantage between R22 and R410A but yet we are forced to update

Which brings me to my question...

If you top off an R22 system with R290, do you have to remove all the R22 and replace it with R290 or can they be mixed?

Mark

Let's consider how it is that an old R22 system comes to need refrigerant. It's typically because a major component, like the compressor has burned out. Or maybe the evaporator or condensor has corroded and sprung a leak. Those repairs aren't cheap and are going to cost a major portion of what you could get new eqpt for. You'd have to be nuts to pour money into it regardless of the price of R22. Compressor shot? $1000 even with the price of R22 when it was cheap. At today's prices, it's $1200. In the words of Hillary Clinton

"What difference does it make?"

BS. New systems have SEERS of 14+. The typical R22 systems they are replacing have SEERS of 10. That is a huge difference in efficiency and operating cost. Now, I'm not saying everyone should run out and replace their system today. But if you have an old R22 system that needs a major repair, the answer is likely yes. And it could be yes even if the systems is still running fine. It depends on the climate, AC usage, and electricity cost.

Not in the refigerant, no. NEver said there was, only that there is an economic advantage in what it costs to operate that new R410 system compared to the typical 20 year old R22 system that needs a big infusion of R22 to keep it running.

Which brings me to my question...

If you top off an R22 system with R290, do you have to remove all the R22 and replace it with R290 or can they be mixed?

Mark

What about autofrost contains some butane. R12 replacement.

Greg

What about autofrost contains some butane. R12 replacement.

Greg

what?????

Kind of a snotty reply to a well meaning response. So go F! yourself...

Obviously you are either not in the HVAC business or are just another hired gopher.

Wow! What aqn intelligent analogy.. ;-p

Most refrigerant top off's are needed for leaks in the system and not compressor burnouts. stretching of the A-coil etc is quite common. causing microscopic leaks.

Or maybe the

Actually, That statement is pretty spot on. The new system will not last as long as the R22 system in most cases. But you will get more service calls for rebalancing the cooling gases.

Due ..of course to a much larger Condensing coil and A-coil system. For those of you that are not too bright....Check the size of that equipment. Also note that many furnaces are now only 33 inch tall in order to facilitate the overlarge Acoil

With you wandering our network... I can see why it is Code to install locks on the service valves. How much can you huff in a single night?

That statement is spot on? The only reason a new system is more economical is because of the high cost of R22? The fact that a new system is typically SEER 14, while the old one it replaces is SEER 10, doesn't affect the economics? Good grief! It's operating cost will be substantially less.

Who cares exactly how it's achieved? The simple fact is that a cost effective R410A system is available that has a huge efficiency increase compared to the old system it replaced. Contrary to your nonsense, that is a huge economic advantage and the consumer doesn't care how exactly it's achieved.

"wandering our network" ?

How much can I "huff" in a single night? You think I'm an HVAC tech?

Huff? Is that the lingo you use to describe the covert theft of AC refrigerant?

I'm a Canadian watching you americans flush yourselves down the toilet in many ways. Urban mining - stripping copper and wire, street and highway lights, gutters and siding, plumbing, entire hvac systems (and R22) from working systems, church rooftops and derelict homes.

You just did it again. Editing to completely change the context. Let's review, shall we?

I posted : "What answers exactly are "industries" giving that are false? Pretty much what I've heard is that the R410 systems are safe for the environment because of the R410 "

You edited the above to this:

"What answers exactly are "industries" giving that are false? Pretty much what I've heard is that the R410 systems are safe

And then gave your response:

"Yes R410 is safer as to what defiantly not regarding pressures,..."

I said manufacturers said R410 is safe for the ENVIRONMENT and you make it sound like I just said R410 is safe and then start talking about safety with regard to pressure.

Same to you pal. You have some kind of bug up your ass about R22 vs R410A. All I did was point out that the typical R410A system that you buy today to replace that old system has a much higher efficiency rating. Contrary to your nonsense, that is a big economic advantage to the consumer and the consumer doesn't care how exactly it's achieved, whether it has R410A, R22 or XYZ.

The you should be able to give us some credible industry sources that support your claim that there is a significant initial failure rate on compressors in new HVAC eqpt that has been properly installed. Links please....

Thank you, because it is. Cars today are available that have much higher efficiency ratings than they did 20 years ago. Now you can argue about how those ratings are done, whether if a car is rated 28 MPG on the highway you actually get that specific number or not. But that the car uses less gas than the equivalent car it replaced from 20 years ago is a fact.

Simple question, do you deny that a new 14 SEER system saves a large amount in electricity that it uses compared to a 10 SEER system that it replaces? Yes or no?

" snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net" used improper usenet message composition style by unnecessarily full-quoting:

He also talked about the R410 systems not having as long a service life as the r22 systems, and also leakage issues.

Someone faced with fixing a leak and re-charging an R22 system would be paying substantially less for that repair if the cost of R22 wasn't being made artificially higher due to politics.

The artificially high cost of R22 changes the economics and payback equation for the home owner and makes the high cost of replacing the entire system with R410 seem more comparable to fixing the existing R22 system.

No one is disputing the differences in operating costs between the two systems. You seem to be minimizing the upfront costs for tearing out the old system and installing a new one. The amortization schedule (or rate-of-payback) for these sorts of things are never what they claim to be.

The "leakage issue" is a red herring. The new systems may not last as long as systems from 30 years ago, but I don't see that as being an R410 issue. Most residential eqpt one buys today doesn't typically last as long as the system from 30 years ago. A gas furnace, a dishwasher, for example and they don't use R410.

Oh please. We've been through that a dozen times. If you need a pound of R22 to top off a system, it doesn't make much difference in the cost. The cost of that R22 is $16. Even if it needs a whole system charge, it's not so high it's the end of the world. It's just that if a system needs a whole charge, it's probably because it's had some major failure. And in that case, most people with good sense, would decide that it's not worth fixing the 25 year old system and instead replace it with a new system that uses 40% less energy.

See above.

Actually, grumpy, pax, whatever his name is, well he is disputing it. And I'm not minimizing the costs of a new system. I just think that typically if a system needs a whole lot of R22, then it's very likely because it's had a major failure, eg the compressor is shot, the coils are shot, etc. In that case, it makes no sense to me to be bitching about the cost of R22, because even if R22 were 25% of the price it is today, it wouldn't make sense to do a major repair to that old system. And if it just needs a pound or two of R22, then it's still not that much and if they want to just add the R22, nothing stopping them from doing so.

In other words, I don't buy this nonsense that it's the high cost of R22 that's forcing people to needlessly convert to new eqpt.

s. AC systems are designed for totally non flammable refrigerants. if there is some air in the system, and the happy home owner adds propane, the resu lting explosive mix can, well, explode.

In my experience and observation, without resorting to "doom and gloom" and terror tactics, Many, MANY vehicles are equipped with propane AS A FUEL. I n other words, there is no more dangerous environment for propane to exist in it's compressed format (in tanks). Yet, as EVERYONE knows who knows anyt hing about chemistry, propane does not burn until and unless it is evaporat ed and mixed with sufficient oxygen and then brought to the ignition point. Even if there was a minute amount of oxygen in the sealed air conditioner/ refrigeration loop, the danger of ignition is virtually nil. I have personally recharged a number of vehicles and an old freezer using p ropane, with no ill effects to my knowledge. I even power-factor-corrected the old units to use a fraction of the electricity making replacing them a low-priority issue. It appears that the law is created by man FOR man, that is to say for indus try, for the elite who are in control of industry and commerce. The common "consumers" have no say in the matter which occurs in the capital cities of the world (contrary to what we are led to believe). What is most interesting is that I learned about Propane being used as a re frigerant by a commercial refrigeration technician charged with the heat-pu mp systems of a number of skating rinks. He told me that Ammonia was the be st refrigerant, but that Ammonia requires very special equipment AND care t o use and maintain. Whereas Propane was a good substitute which is not weig hted down with the same concerns as Ammonia. :) Eugene Labossiere

It is the slow leak into a confined space with an ignition source that is the problem. In an automotive sytewm a slow leak in the evaporator can put enough propane into the interior of the car to ignite from the spark of the dome light switch when the door is opened. Propane fuel components are NOT allowed inside the passenger area.