home A/C and R-22 - cost per lb

Just wondering what the A/C service companies are charging for R-22 these days. I called for service on our home A/C unit, and the basic showup charge is $85, but forgot to ask the R-22 per lb charge... Will call around tomorrow.

Reply to
ps56k
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As of April 26, 2013, R22 has drastically increased in price for the indust ry, if you you're lucky, you can work with your A/C tech and he'll sell it to you wholesale if there's labor work involved in the sale. It's still goi ng to run you $80/lb and even a small system is gonna set you back $500. Ho pe this is a helpful message and I don't know who is regulating the costs o f R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so.

Reply to
tdfeige9865
Reply to
Stormin Mormon

back $500. Hope this is a helpful message and I don't know who is regulating the costs of R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so.

Continuing to operate an old R-22 air conditioner is fiscally foolish when you realize that the new 18 SEER units use half the energy.

Reply to
Jon Edwards

you back $500. Hope this is a helpful message and I don't know who is regu lating the costs of R22, but it's more than DOUBLED in the past year or so.

While I agree that if it comes to any significant repair, it's time to scrap it, I don't think that translates into it being foolish to continue to operate an R22 system. It depends on the cost of electricity and how much you use it. If you're in a climate and/or situation where it's not used that much, say for a vacation house that you only use occasionally, I don't think it's foolish to keep operating it. Also to justify the much higher cost of an

18 SEER compared to say a 14 SEER unit, you'd have to have high energy costs and/or a lot of usage. It can cost $1500 more for one of those 18 SEER.
Reply to
trader4

About the price increase, see here:

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=================== February 15th, 2013 R-22 refrigerant (freon) price Increases in 2013

The price of R-22 refrigerant has skyrocketed in the last 6 months. Due to government regulations to ?phase out? the production of ?ozone depleting? chemicals like Freon, production has continued to decrease and has costs to skyrocket. R-22 refrigerant is 4 times more expensive than it was just 6 months ago and is expected to continue to climb.

Due to this, contractors have bought it at an alarming rate and supplies are greatly reduced. ?Panic Buying? have forced some vendors across the country to limit the amount of R-22 contractors can purchase in a month.

As the cost of R-22 rises, the cost of the new replacement Freon, R410a continues to drop. It is a simple case of supply and demand.

Federal regulations call for a 90% reduction of production of R-22 by

2015 and to be completely obsolete by 2020. What this means to consumers is outrages Freon related repair costs and eventually no choice but to replace their HVAC equipment.

Most air conditioners manufactured before 2010 us the old R-22 refrigerant.

While a R-410a unit can just as easily devel> Continuing to operate an old R-22 air conditioner is fiscally

I thought that R-22 was more efficient than R134 or R410 (less of a load on the compressor to achieve the same heat-transfer effect).

In any case, it's looking more and more that home owners are going the DIY route by recharging their leaking home R22 units with propane (and I know that you so-called pro's in alt.hvac will just love it when that happens).

And I don't see why not, given that the auto-ignition temp. of these refrigeration-grade propane mixes is higher than R134 and R410, and from an electrical energy usage standpoint, using propane seems to cut that down by 40%.

What I don't really understand is the safety hazzard issue of using propane.

If you have a small leak (the sort of leak that is typical in an HVAC system) it's going to take days or weeks for the system to de-pressurize to ambient pressure, and the relatively small amount of propane in the system is going to dissapate in the typical home during that time (if the leak is inside the house).

If you have a furnace malfunction (blower-motor burn-out, fan-belt breaks, over-heat cut-off malfunction) then again would you ever have a condition where a run-away plenum temperature would bake the evap coil to the point of combustion?

Could you get combustion happening *inside* the compressor due to some sort of mechanical compressor malfunction?

Some sort of accidental dammage to AC lines (either inside or outside the house) could release all of the propane within minutes or seconds - is this the combustion hazzard that the HVAC industry / gov't is worried about? Is this the only practical safety issue with using propane for home A/C recharging?

Reply to
HVAC Guy

If propane and air are mixed in the system, the explosion can be dangerous. AC systems are designed for totally non flammable refrigerants. if there is some air in the system, and the happy home owner adds propane, the resulting explosive mix can, well, explode.

In any case, it's looking more and more that home owners are going the DIY route by recharging their leaking home R22 units with propane (and I know that you so-called pro's in alt.hvac will just love it when that happens).

And I don't see why not, given that the auto-ignition temp. of these refrigeration-grade propane mixes is higher than R134 and R410, and from an electrical energy usage standpoint, using propane seems to cut that down by 40%.

What I don't really understand is the safety hazzard issue of using propane.

If you have a small leak (the sort of leak that is typical in an HVAC system) it's going to take days or weeks for the system to de-pressurize to ambient pressure, and the relatively small amount of propane in the system is going to dissapate in the typical home during that time (if the leak is inside the house).

If you have a furnace malfunction (blower-motor burn-out, fan-belt breaks, over-heat cut-off malfunction) then again would you ever have a condition where a run-away plenum temperature would bake the evap coil to the point of combustion?

Could you get combustion happening *inside* the compressor due to some sort of mechanical compressor malfunction?

Some sort of accidental dammage to AC lines (either inside or outside the house) could release all of the propane within minutes or seconds - is this the combustion hazzard that the HVAC industry / gov't is worried about? Is this the only practical safety issue with using propane for home A/C recharging?

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I would think that it would be possible for a leak to not only let propane out but let air in if it's on the low side, making that a not unlikely scenario. It should be perfectly safe IF THERE ARE NO LEAKS but do you want to bet that that is never going to happen on your system?

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I don't have any verifiable proof, or examples to point to. But, I'm not going to volunteer to have my AC system exploded for science.

I would think that it would be possible for a leak to not only let propane out but let air in if it's on the low side, making that a not unlikely scenario. It should be perfectly safe IF THERE ARE NO LEAKS but do you want to bet that that is never going to happen on your system?

nate

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

systems are designed for totally non flammable refrigerants. if there is some air in the system, and the happy home owner adds propane, the resulting explosive mix can, well, explode.

But if there is air in the system the owner has other problems. That's why a system is "evacuated" before recharging - with ANY refrigerant.

Reply to
clare

How low does the low side of a refrigeration unit go???? Are they not supposed to run somewhere between 40 and 85 PSI??? Not much change of getting ANY air into a system that has enough gas in it to function at all. In fact virtually impossible to get air into anything but an OPEN system (one with a severe leak or one with a slow leak that has existed for a long time - system totally non-functional)

Reply to
clare

to volunteer to have my AC system exploded for science.

LOTS of so-called "drop in replacement" refrigerants are mostly propane. Not that I would recommend using ANY of them on a refrigeration/ac system.

The big problem with propane, in my opinion, is it is a "heavier than air" flammable gas - so if it leaks in your house, and the AC coil/lines are in a asement, the gas may collect rather than disburse, and you have a very real explosion/fire hazard.

Used in an automotive AC system, unless it leaks in your below-grade or basement-connected garage, the hazards are significantly reduced.

If it leaks into the car when you are driving the mercapitan will get you out of the car before it gets dangerous (before it reaches lean explosive limit)

Reply to
clare

going to volunteer to have my AC system exploded for science.

s3.newsguy.com...

Imagine trying to explain a AC fire in your hme from a DIY propane gas in AC. Your insurance company will be interested:(

Reply to
bob haller

going to volunteer to have my AC system exploded for science.

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@news3.newsguy.com...

Here we go again, Haller's insurance insanity.

Reply to
krw

If air could get in, there wouldn't be enough propane to matter.

Reply to
krw

I wonder if anyone has heard of a stoichiometric or near stoichiometric mixture? It doesn't have to be that close but you do need enough O2 and fuel to make a BOOM! The military and terrorists have used fuel/air bombs with great effectiveness. If you pump O2 from your welding tank into your AC filled with propane and overload the compressor until the overload breaker in the compressor windings gets hot enough to trip, you might be a Redneck. You should have two cameras setup, one close and one far away. After it's all over have a surviving Redneck upload the video to Y'all Tube. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

That's right, it's the low side, but it's still way above atmospheric pressure, so if there is a leak, it's going to leak out. When it gets down to atmospheric pressure, then air could start to get inside. But with a typical pinhole leak, I see refrigerant under pressure getting out. Air getting in is going to be a lot more difficult.

A bigger worst case scenario would be that someone or something slams into one of the lines inside near the furnace, severs it and a pilot light from the furnace, water heater, etc ignites the propane. But you kind of have that potential with dryer gas lines, stove lines, etc too.

I wonder if any codes say anthing about it?

Reply to
trader4

How low does the low side of a refrigeration unit go???? Are they not supposed to run somewhere between 40 and 85 PSI??? Not much change of getting ANY air into a system that has enough gas in it to function at all. In fact virtually impossible to get air into anything but an OPEN system (one with a severe leak or one with a slow leak that has existed for a long time - system totally non-functional)

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

LOTS of so-called "drop in replacement" refrigerants are mostly propane. Not that I would recommend using ANY of them on a refrigeration/ac system.

The big problem with propane, in my opinion, is it is a "heavier than air" flammable gas - so if it leaks in your house, and the AC coil/lines are in a asement, the gas may collect rather than disburse, and you have a very real explosion/fire hazard.

Used in an automotive AC system, unless it leaks in your below-grade or basement-connected garage, the hazards are significantly reduced.

If it leaks into the car when you are driving the mercapitan will get you out of the car before it gets dangerous (before it reaches lean explosive limit)

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Imagine trying to explain a AC fire in your hme from a DIY propane gas in AC. Your insurance company will be interested:(

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

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