Will you be gardening 10 years from now?

[Chris]

Please remember to take the blue pill in the morning and the pink pill in the evening.

NOT the other way around.

Chris

[Chris]

You see deer because of bad land management practices and the elimination of predators.

Wild turkeys have been introduced to many areas.

Black bears are extremely versatile animals. When you see them in human-inhabited areas, it means they do not have sufficient wild area for them to establish a territory.

Ditto, coyotes.

Chris

[despen]

I love that saying.

When things really start going down the drain, you still find solace. "At least it's interesting".

:)

[Nad R]

Not only is the glass ( Earth ) is half empty with good ideas it is polluted and leaking also. I say stop humans from breeding like rats... But others believe this is a negative view, I say it is positive view.

How does this disable one? I disagree with your presuppositions on incompatibility and foresight. I see a lot of people with positive attitudes taking the primrose path to solving problems. Many just get plain lucky. If It fails, we will fix it and fix it and fix it... As things keep getting worse and worse.

Now who is thinking negatively! Minimize death and pain? Not improving life and longevity? Hmmmmm......

Cool, you keep on fixing those nuclear power plants in Australia. Me I say get rid of them. But those with positive attitudes say "We can fix it". Yea right.

[Nad R]

Yep, that is how I see it. He sees this as Positive Thinking attribute.... see the good! Positive thinkers are short sighted.

[Nad R]

I suppose you also like the saying "Suffering Builds Character" also.... NOT!

[despen]

I hate the deer. But the land is healthy enough to support a load of them and we aren't hunting them to extinction.

Not here. They're back because there are ecosystems that can support them. And we aren't hunting them to extinction.

No, they're doing so well in the wild areas that they overflow into human inhabited areas. And we aren't hunting them to extinction.

[Nad R]

NO, they are breading because it illegal to shoot the does in numbers, a bad management policy. I have had two deer hits with my truck that has cost me and the insurance company lots of money.The only predator they have are humans... I say bring back the panthers and wolves in your back yard to bring nature back in balance. Also deer are not native to America.

They breed turkeys and pheasants here in Michigan also. They DNR also breeds fish for the great lakes. Without breeding it is estimated the great would have no fish in just five years or less.

Black bears are not doing well here also. Those Asians want big bucks for bear's liver as an aphrodisiac. So the poaching is devastating them.

Please enlighten me with more positive views... Pathetic...

[David Hare-Scott]

Many environmental problems will be solved or at least ameliorated if we can limit population growth. Short of the Chinese solution that isn't going to happen quickly.

Because you cannot get people to do something they believe is impossible and you cannot get them to work their hardest if they don't see a positive outcome at some time now or in the future.

Positive feelings don't allow you to do things that are physically impossible but they a degree of faith allows you to get towards doing your best. This is the basis of sport psychology, any kind of leadership and one of the better aspects of religion. It is a question of motivating people, you cannot motivate people well if they feel hopeless.

You need rationality to make good decisions and optimism to act.

This is playing with words. I never said there are no unfortunate or undesirable things happening in the world. My optimism is that we can do something about them. This doesn't mean the future is rosy (it isn't) it means a partial solution is better than none.

We don't have any nuclear power plants. The attitude you refer to is optimism without rationality, I never suggested that, please don't put words in my mouth.

If the way you defend it says anything I don't think your dour world view is of a very rational origin. Anyway I don't want to get too personal so let's not go any further in that direction.

D

[FarmI]

Extreme is one thing. When you toss in "variable" it becomes another whole problem. ________________________________ Well which particular 'variable' did you have in mind?

People already do garden in extreme and variable conditions right round the world , but until you tell us exactly what sort of extreme and variable you have in your mind's eye, then this subject is too nebulous to discuss.

[FarmI]

Of course they are. Extreme weather by itself is not a problem.

Extreme weather that has become variable IS a problem.

Nope. Extremes of temperature and rainfall are exactly what I had in mind. __________________________________ Gardening in Australia beyond the eastern seaboard fits that description.

[FarmI]

LOL. Fair point.

[FarmI]

How do you see this as being a possibility where nature itself has been destroyed?

[FarmI]

We only have one and it's tiny and not used for powere generation - something to do with nuclear medicine IIRC.

Unfortunately I don't think that 'they' are even saying that much. I think that those who should be saying 'we can fix it', either don't know there is a problem, or are ignoring it because anything needing fixing is (they think) beyond the next election.

[FarmI]

That sort of 'leadership' approach has always given me a case of the squits. I never watch team sports because of all that jolly hockey sticks coaching stuff which makes me want to gag. Such an approach doesn't allow for more than one mode of motivation and I believe that individuals can be motivated by many and varied techniques/approaches. Give me a rationale rather than that warm and fuzzy fluff stuff.

[Billy]

And now a few sane words.

[David Hare-Scott]

I am no team sport fan and the rah rah stuff is no good to me personally but it does work on most people, especially groups of males.

Likewise a leader is no use to me unless I have a rational reason for going where they are going but that ought to be part of the package anyway by my definition of good leader.

Forget about my examples, let's go back to the original topic. How are you going to get humanity to change their energy, transport and food systems?

The approach of rational persuasion based on evidence has been a conspicuous failure so far. Why? It has been successfully countered by an irrational denial campaign. Bullshit baffles brains. Or at least has done this far.

Fear will jog people out of their apathy and get things moving. Once you have done that what will motivate them to accept the transitional hardships? Hope for the future. If they feel hopeless they will not act as effectively, it will take longer and the consequences will be harsher.

David

[Nad R]

I agree with that FarmI. I hate team sports and never watch them. I prefer to watch individuals sports, if i actually ever watch sport of any kind, like running or biking.

I was going to comment on that also. The key word here is "Religion". People who believe are those of a "team" like mind. Very difficult to change those mind sets.

[Nad R]

I believe the human race can go on without nature. Food stuff probably can be completely manufactured from basic elements. Quality of life may not be there, but humans could continue. It may be true that I watch to much science fiction also. Way too much... :)

[Nad R]

The old saying "Who said that the human race was rational" actually the correct word was "logical" from star trek. Yes, religion does play into an optimist view point. A god would not let this happen. One more reason I see no hope for the human race.

As an atheist, I know it is an impossible task to change people's view point on many things. Perhaps if you view that only an optimist can change peoples view point then maybe I will agree on that.

I will let it end here. You can have the last word if you wish.