Who said Marples chisels are any good???

[Jim Wilson]

I'm a tad confused by your numbers. A material which measures 61 on the Rockwell "C" scale is harder than one that measures HRC59. In steels, hardness and toughness tend to work against each other (though good compromises can be achieved), so it makes sense that a HRC61 blade might not be as tough as a HRC59 blade.

Yes, it does. Did they by any chance detail the metrics they used to rank the chisels? From your description above, it sounds like they ranked toughness pretty highly, but that seems contrary to this last bit of advice.

Also, did they attempt to identify the types of steel used in the tested chisels?

Thanks,

Jim

[Larry C in Auburn, WA]

Dang, I hate it when that happens. Yeah, I should have remembered the way the Rockwell hardness test goes. I was relying on my old memory... The numbers were all generally close though.

They tested two items; hardness and toughness. Hardness is pretty straightforward using the Rockwell hardness test so they just gave the RC number for each chisel. Toughness is a little more subjective and this is where they provided the ranking from 1 to 17. They ran the chisels through a test then measured the roughness of the edge down to approximately 1 micron (9,500 measurements across 1 inch). From this roughness data they rated the toughness of the edge.

No mention of the chisel composition.

As I mentioned in another post, this review is now 4 years old and they only tested 17 chisels out of hundreds (thousands?) available so it all has to be taken with a grain of salt. I couldn't figure out any hard-and-fast rules based on brand (e.g. Sears was tougher than many others), country of origin (e.g. not all Japanese chisels rated high), or cost (e.g. several lower cost chisels beat out higher cost chisels). Seemed to be something of a crap shoot to find the "right" chisel.

[Conan the Librarian]

I remember reading this article and wondering exactly what it hoped to "prove". To me it seemed to be close to worthless unless you consider a chisel to be an implement of destruction (or you just use them to open paint cans or chop through rusty nails).

I'll leave it to the metallurgists to debate this sort of thing, but isn't the true worth of a chisel found in the fact that it can hold a decent edge but still be sharpened in a reasonable time? (Isn't it a compromise?) Doesn't this mean that the "best" chisel in that test would have a medium/high Rockwell, but a high "toughness" rating?

Chuck Vance

[Jim Wilson]

Wow. By that measure, a CSO (chisel-shaped-object) made of mild steel would have rated highly, as it is extremely tough, although not at all hard, being typically HRC35 or below. Of course, the edge would fail by bending despite the toughness, so I am being a little facetious.

Wow, again. Those are some mighty big microns! (G) They're even bigger than tenths! Most microns, properly "micrometers," are about 0.00003937";

25,400 of 'em fit in an inch.

IME, that's exactly how it is "in real life." Thanks for the information on the article, Larry. I haven't seen it and wondered how they would compare the tools quantitatively. Please forgive me for picking on it a little bit. I don't mean to be giving you a hard time at all.

Cheers!

Jim

[Jim Wilson]

A good quality screwdriver would have rated even better!

Jim

[Larry C in Auburn, WA]

I don't mind you questioning what I wrote, getting accurate info is more important. Besides, I question people all the time so it's about time I get questioned back.

I don't think I said what I wanted to say very clearly. Let me try again. They didn't come up with an overall rating of the chisels. What they did was measure two things. Hardness and toughness. Hardness is an objective measurement so they just provided the RC number. Toughness is more subjective so after testing the tools they measured the roughness of the edge and then provided a ranking of the chisels by roughness (i.e. their definition of toughness). It was left to the reader to balance the two measurements (actual harness measurement and the roughness ranking). They made 9,500 (9 thousand 5 hundred, not 9 point 5) measurements across a 1/2" chisel so I think that works out to about 1.3 microns. I earlier said it was 9,500 measurements across a 1" chisel, but it was actually across a 1/2" chisel.

Most of the chisels were close in hardness so that wasn't a determining factor in my opinion. Ignoring the ergonomics of the various brands for a minute leaves us with these two measurements to evaluate. Given a particular hardness number (over 1/2 the chisels had an RC number between 59 and 61) then the FWW hardness factor would seem to be the determining measurement. I understand your point that the two factors (hardness & toughness) fight against each other. A kitchen spatula would rank very high on the FWW toughness scale, but still couldn't cut anything, OTOH a ceramic chisel might be hard but wouldn't be very tough. This is why they gave both numbers. However, since the chisels scored roughly in the same hardness band we're talking about similar materials.

As a point of interest (maybe?), the softest chisel only ranked 8th for toughness rather than 1st as might be expected and the hardest chisel scored second for toughness rather than last.

Now factor in cost, ease of sharpening and I give up, I'm just going to stic k to the coolest looking chisels... At least THAT I can figure out.

[Robert L. Witte]

Why not try the chisels, and if you don't like them send them back? Remember to use your American Express if you do this... DAMHIKT

I have used my sets of Craftsman chisels for years now. The oldest set is over 20 years old! I have three sets: One I take to the job in a nylon rolling case that lives in my truck. These are pretty sharp, but are also my "beaters". I hammer, pry, dig and chop with this set. If I hit an embedded nail or hard knot (like oak), I swear a lot when I get a nick, but I don't cry.

My second set is treated better, and it goes to the job to install new door locks, cabinet pieces, and to do fitting of different hardware and lockets since I do a lot of remodeling. I do not abuse these, and they stay pretty sharp for a decent amount of time, and are really easy to put a fine edge on even in the field.

Last set I just got at a Christmas sale, and bought the set of when they had the 50% off sale with an additional 10% off if purchased before 11:00am. The set of 5 cost me something like $13.

No, they are not the same as some of really nice, expensive chisels that I have that stay in the house, in the closet, that I am afraid I might accidentally drop. In fact, I have found that I don't use my expensive chisels much at all, since they are out of sight and out of mind.

Find the chisels you like regardless of where they are made by trying them out, and sending them back if you don't like them. Inexpensive doesn't mean bad. My Sears chisels are great.

And as pointed out, they don't have a lot of advertising, promotion, or laurels to rest on at Grizzly as far as their *chisels* go so that may account for the lesser price.

Remember at Grizzly or any other big discounter/bulk seller/volume retailer, they don't care about the product as much as they do moving it out. To them, the only one that recognizes "Japanese chisels" is of significance is their ad writers. To the rest of the company, no matter their worth to you, they are just products moving through the system.

Robert

[Charlie Self]

While that's true in general, the owner of Grizzly is a woodworker--check out the guitars he builds. They're shown in every catalog. Actually, he started, IIRC, as a metalworker, and has sort of segued into woodworking as that part of his business has outgrown all else, by far.

His guitar-building makes one think he must at least care a bit about the quality of his tools.

Charlie Self "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure." Mark Twain

[Silvan]

Yeah man... I sure wish I could play with one of those bee-yootiful guitars of his. That guy has some serious skill.

Well, serious skill at making them look good. I don't know whether they're good players or not. One would sure hope so.

[Wm Gardner]

While I agree with you in principle, budgets do eventually come into play also. For the chisels you mentioned, the 1.5" (alone) is 1/2 the price of the entire Grizzly set. Frankly this is more than I intended to spend on chisels.

Don't misunderstand, I am not questioning the quality/price/value of the higher end Japanese chisels, I was just hoping to get something of reasonable quality for an affordable price. If these chisels are of low quality, I will likely purchase the Freud set instead. Though I would like Japanese chisels, I do not want a poor quality tool just because it is Japanese.

Thanks for the advice (domo arigato), Bill

[Adrian Mariano]

[Layne]

I know of the chisels you're talking about. Japanese tools are inherently more expensive (shipping, duties, taxes, etc.). Thus, when you do buy a "cheap" Japanese tool -- or even English tool -- you are paying more for it.

The thing with the Japan Woodworker brand is you don't really know who the maker is. It could be an apprentice or some factory shlep. At least with the higher end tools that may cost only slightly more...and sometimes a lot more...you know the individual maker spent years learning their craft to make the best possible tool for you.

If I'm not mistaken Mastumura, who's chisels aren't exorbitantly priced, is considered a national "living treasure" by the government of Japan.

Layne