Way OT, some interesting video.

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Possible video of the shooting of the Oregonian rancher. I don't know how or why this video was shot.
The beginning is not worth watching, just bull shit propaganda, But the video of the guy being shot in the back with his hands up is interesting. ( I am not calling it cold blooded, because I can't see the fine detail, but I am saying this is questionable).
See about 13 minutes in, on. Around 14 minutes they shoot him in the back. Yea he was stopped, then took off on a high speed run, but the shooting in the back with hands up is tough to justify.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW4bz4Mafr0

Way toward the end, I didn't watch the whole video, I had it on pause and for some reason it started itself automatically, there are clips of Obama saying he was training ISIS to go after Asad, (WHAT!!!!!) that sure backfired.
We never learn our lessons do we, we have history repeating itself over and over. Afghanistan vs Russians, that became Al Qaeda.. .. Our politicians are idiots, they don't study history very well.. Since they keep repeating it.
--
--
Jeff

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Except that he *didn't* have his hands up when he was shot.
He did have his hands up shortly before that, true, but watch the video again. He *lowers* his hands, starts to reach inside his coat -- and that's when he gets shot.
BTW, there was a loaded 9mm handgun inside the coat where he was reaching.
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wrote:

When I was a child I had a lot of respect for them, all trained in the law and science plus.
That was lost years ago when they started shooting ranchers and so called militia any which way they could, this shooting just re enforced it all.
I remember going to a parts house in downtown LA to pick up some order parts and misc only to find ten trucks loaded with the men in black, helmets, BP Vests, stomping boots machine guns at the ready and pistols drawn. Shouting, yelling, commanding and the poor guys that ran the local parts house, one peed in his pants and the other two looked next to death. Up against the wall they were while they swarmed through the bldg looking for records, yes, just paperwork.
LOL, they had an unused bathroom that they storing years old printouts in, and it was very messy, they took every scrap, the cash registers, computers, CC machines and so on. I'd hate to go through all those business transactions.
I was their last customer for the day. I swear, that sight was far worse than when the LA Riots were going on, and then they were not to be seen.
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4ax.com:

Well, I'll grant you that law enforcement often goes overboard, especially the ones that have equipped themselves with military surplus gear and fantasize that in every arrest they're Rambo saving us from evil.
But on the otherhand, the "so called militia" are men taking up arms against their country. In plain language, they are traitors (*). I have no problem with them being shot, any more than I would if they were fighting with ISIS.
(* "simple minded fools" would be another plain language description of them).
John
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On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:02:33 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

I suppose then that the militia who are protecting parts of our southern borders are in that same group?
There are lots of militia groups around, they are legal, and are recommended by the constitution and the founding fathers.
It is a narrow path, but better than pot, a pot of boiling water for the frogs to dwell in.
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On 2/8/2016 5:02 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Well John, not everyone that takes up arms is a traitor. Some were called patriots in the American Revolution.
If you look at some of the things our government is doing, you might be taking up arms.
I read both sides of the argument. Both have their pluses and minuses. Now if you really think about it, their protest was a moderate one at that. It wasn't too far over the top. They had some good points.
I also think 8 years in prison after already serving a year for a fire that spread from private land to public land was a miscarriage of justice. It's what originally ignited these guys. Even the judge that gave them 1 thought that was harsh. So when the prosecutor appealed when they were being released, I think you have to wonder. Murders serve 7 years, and a father and son are getting 8 for a fire. BTW the fire only burned one acre of land that bordered the son's property. No one was hurt, and this was in farm grazing country. So it's understandable why these guys decided to use this issue as their protest.
If you view the video somewhere around 30 minutes (yea I know a lot of bs in this one) you have Obama saying how he is giving money and training to ISIL (ISIS) ... to fight Asad... Boy our politicians never learn .. Afghanistan = Al Qaeda.. Isil = Our biggest thread.
Who's the biggest traitor??? The farmers, or the man who supported ISIS and trained them?
I'm not supporting the Oregonians, but I'm not against what they are saying either. I think our country has a lot of angry people, and keeps trying to please those that want to harm us. These farmers used to be the biggest patriots, but the government worked against them . They manipulated the markets.
We have to go back to a free market, and keep the government out of our businesses .. with exceptions.. There should be some fair guidelines so that the consumer is not taken advantage of by monopolies or rigged business. We need to keep government out, so the playing field becomes level again. We have to have some common sense approach to things, and realize that not everyone will be happy.
Easier said then done.
--
Jeff

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Everyone who takes up arms against his own country is a traitor.

Not by both sides, they weren't. The British called them traitors, and hanged them. Even some of the colonists called them traitors. We call them patriots now only because the revolution succeeded.
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Doug Miller wrote:

Recommend a trip to (Colonial) Williamsburg, VA, where you can relive this in "simulated" real time. I promise you'll gain insights that they omitted in school. And if you go off-season and pick up a coupon as you cross a state line, Comfort Suites has a jacuzzi next to the pool (for about $79 night). There is plenty of woodworking to enjoy.
Bill
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On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 12:57:36 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

Treason doth not prosper, here's the reason. For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
John Donne
--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

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On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

Then I suggest you read the constitution, as well as the thoughts of out founding fathers who understood the concept that power corrupts and absolute power totally corrupts. We were to have a well ordered militia for a very good reason. The Federal Government was to serve the people, the United States of America. The were never called to rule or supercede any states rights. We had at one time three sections of power to the Feds, to insure peace and the constitution. Now they have blurred into one serving the other.
Oregon is a good example where they just confiscated the land for federal usage and for the feds to make money on by granting leases.

Taxation without representation is slavery.
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Um, just in the interest of accuracy here - the land in question in Oregon, the wildlife refuge, was never "confiscated". It was always federal land, and it was made into a wildlife refuge by Theodore Roosevelt over 100 years ago.
I think you may have been drinking a little too much of the wingnut fringe Koolaid...
John
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On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 23:02:39 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

Yes, it was federal land as most of the property in western United States, but farmers and ranchers had use of it during that time up until around 1996 when they started disallowing the families who lived and farmed there for generation under agreements with the feds. All the lands under the feds had been confiscated.

It sure beats the garland of flowers on your head. ;)
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Children... CHILDREN!
Be respectful of the other kids and take your pissing match somewhere else. This is a woodworking site for all things woodworking.
The proper forum that allows you to piss freely in each other's faces is he re:
https://groups.google.com/forum /#!forum/alt.politics
This woodworking group has been literally destroyed by all the political vo mit spewed on its pages by self righteous experts that screech the latest i ndignations as described by their favorite news outlet.
At one time this group was about 500 active people, and it was abandoned by just about everyone (Karl got me to take a look about 2 years ago, I was g one for about 5) as they tore out their hair, shit blasted one another and generally took over this woodworking group to espouse their own brand of po litical diarrhea.
And for what? In the end, their political diatribes, their long debates of their well-Googled opinions bolstered by their favorite radio and print ex perts amounted to nothing. They used this venue to shit on each other and made it so unpleasant for everyone else that just wanted to talk about wood working that many valuable voices are gone. Permanently.
Shame on them for being the biggest bullies on the playground ruining this place for so many. Shame on you if you follow in their footsteps.
I don't care if you have any respect for yourself, but for those of us that want to keep it a woodworking group, take it somewhere else.
Robert
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+1
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On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 13:47:03 +0000, Spalted Walt

HURRAY! Me too +2
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I have, thank you very much. Possibly you missed the part where it says "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them..."
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On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 00:04:02 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

Guess you missed the part about the right to bear arms and a well order militia, etc.
Do you realize what it means to levy war against the USA? Not a skirmish, nor a defensive more against those who seek to be imperialistic?
Just something to think about, and I have been all through this before, and I also served my Country by my free will and was not drafted. A militia protecting our borders, which some are doing now in order to spare the lives of the ranchers who live near the border are a group of men doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Well, I have said more than I was going to, sorry, but I did come here for the learning of WW'ing. So this is the end of my dalliance on this subject.
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against

Are you seriously contending that the right to bear arms includes taking up arms against your own government?

Taking up arms against the government of the USA certainly seems to qualify.
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On 2/12/2016 7:38 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

what'cha building these day Doug? ;~)
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Lots of plumbing and rough carpentry the last few weeks. SWMBO and I bought a fixer-upper to downsize into -- kids are grown and out of the house, and we don't need a big house and big yard any more. After a year of searching, we found *exactly* the property we wanted, except that it's not move-in ready.
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