Slo-Mo Looting

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We got off topic of an off topic post, its all good, dont get upset. If you want to deal with that specific, how does a clerk jumping someone have to do with someone being a witness to shoplifting...life is too short to argue this much
Have a great day Charlie
Clif

back
covered
deserve no

Bierce, The

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they have a tough job. but it's one they signed up for. give them cretit for what they do, and hold them to the highest standards. Frankly, I think they're underpaid and the hiring standards are way too lax.
me, I've seen way too much abuse of authority to have any respect for the uniform. cops are people. they want my respect, they need to earn it.
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Yes they do sign up, and yes there should be tougher standards

ALL cops have my respect until they do something to lose it. And yes they are highly underpaid, but this is a topic for another forum, I know i have already gone way off woodworking already
Clif
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Is this you? That's what would give the truth to this statement. Are you happy
that you're fulfilling what you signed up for? How would we know? I've seen too many liberals put the strong, straight and narrow strap on others while practicing indulgent behavior themselves.
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BUB 209 wrote:

You give far too much credit to everyone else. Hypocrites come in all makes and models.
G
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Leon states:

The original statement had zip to do with cops. It was clerks in a WalMart store.

Bullshit. Criminals fear jail time, but they know that a good lawyer means their only jail time will be in the arrest pen.

I do not owe a clerk cooperation or an explanation of anything. Jesus.

When did citizens lose the right to be left alone when they have not done anything?
Neither one of us knows whether the parties jumped were guilty or innocent. But, then, neither did the clerks who did the jumping. They thought they knew. Different thing.
Charlie Self "Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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Wal-Mart
Clerks, cops, or rent a cops. If the thief gets hurt during a crime, too bad for him. We should not have to fear hurting him when he is caught red handed.

officers
Therefore, they do not fear going to jail.

If you are stealing you certainly do and I would gladly prove my innocence if asked to display the inside of my coat if approached in a store that I am visiting. I may never go back but I would respect the store for trying to protect it's assets. It certainly beats making a scene and for sure looking guilty, guilty or not.

the
right
innocent.
knew.
True.
So how is the Bird House Book coming?

Bierce, The

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training
So if a security guard had suffacted you, you would have deserved it???
I certainly would not have blamed him for doing his job. I was wrong. Had I died, then it would have been my time to go. Stranger things have happened. No body gets out a live.
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On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:02:31 +0000, Leon wrote:

...and you can hasten the process if you ignore mother nature's rule: Screw with the bull and you get the horn.
-Doug
--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
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Exactly seems only common sense to me too.
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Leon wrote:

You're kidding, right? If the security guards/cops/manager came out and beat the crap out of/maimed/killed you, you wouldn't blame them? Remember, "Jail time obviousely does not work. The only thing most criminals fear is being beaten up," and by admission, you're a criminal here.
This has to be the second silliest comment on this whole thread (the first being something about the Democrats and the end of the world).
G
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Nope.
If the security guards/cops/manager came out and beat the crap out of/maimed/killed you, you wouldn't blame them?
If I had been stealing, in this instance that was the concequense. I think more people should tak responsibility for their actions instead of blaming some one else or whining about oues rights being stepped on. If I electrocut my self because I stepped in water while repairing a live wire I would not blame the power company either. It was my mistake, not the store employees mistake.

That is what I believe I said.

Perhaps it does sound silly to you but I was taught that if you cause problems intentionally or not, you will have a price to pay.
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Charlie Self wrote:

Jesus is right. It's common courtesy to answer reasonable questions posed by the designated representatives of the owners of the property on which you are standing. I don't see why you have a problem with it.

Walking onto somebody else's property and then getting pissed off when they ask you what you are doing there is not "doing nothing". In fact it is downright suspicious.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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Yeah, common courtesy. It seems that some of our laws are makeing it to where the thief gets the common courtesy over the person trying to protect his property. What is wrong with this picture. It has always been my belief that if you are uncooperative in a matter such as this, you probably have something to hide.

the
right
When "Liberal Laws" were passed. That does not mean laws passed by liberals.

done
they
Exactly, but some think that this is profiling..
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On 17 Aug 2004 19:09:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

nothing unfortunate about that. those laws came into being for very specific and valid reasons, reasons that remain present.

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bridger responds:

Yes, well...I was aiming at sarcasm and even missed irony, I guess.
Charlie Self "Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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On 17 Aug 2004 19:09:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:
|Leon writes: | |>Which IMHO is part of the problem. Ir law breakers had the fear of being |>punished, they may not break so many laws. If some one is seen stealing, he |>is not a suspect in the eyes of most people, he is truely guilty of |>stealing. But, unfortunately, the liberal laws protect the criminal. |>Again, don't let the criminal piss on your shoe and tell you is raining. | |Oh, bullshit. What you are recommending is basically vigilante justice, with |the cops doing all the deciding of who is and isn't guilty. | |Given, our legal system is in need of repair. Given, too many people get away |with too much. Given, something has to be done. Not given: cops with the right |to do as the damned well please on any or no evidence at all. | |If we could be absolutely sure ever cop, especially rent-a-cops though, had |perfect judgment, then quite possibly allowing them to manhandle prisoners, or |about-to-be prisoners, might be justified. Unfortunately, no one has perfect |judgment, and double unfortunately, the Consitution gives us particular rights |around arrest and incarceration. | |Law breakers should have the fear of the law drummed into them. But I don't |want clerks in stores decided that I shoved something in my pocket because they |didn't see me put it back on the shelf. Or, rather, I don't want them following |me out of the store and jumping on me, or anyone else, over such things. I'm |too old and fat to retaliate as I once might have, but I could sure as hell |remove some teeth and part of an ear, maybe all of it, before going down.
Unfortunately, in Arizona alledged shoplifting is a capital crime punishable by summary execution.
Quote from: http://www.1delta.net/news0604.html
" D.A. Will NOT File Charges In Death Of Shoplifter (Tucson,AZ-June 13,2004)--On Feb 26, Frank Hernandez,36, entered the Safeway Food & Drug store and was soon suspected of shoplifting by the store's Security Guards. When the Security Guards tried to detain Hernandez for questioning, the suspect resisted and a struggle ensued resulting in Hernandez death. On Fri. the Pima County Attorney's Office stated they do NOT plan to file charges in the case against the store & Security Guards involved. An autopsy showed Hernandez died of "asphyxia due to neck compression" and also had internal hemorrhaging and suffered blunt-force injuries. In a letter to the Tucson Police Department, Deputy County Attorney Rick Unklesbay said, "Frank Hernandez's death is tragic, but I cannot conclude that it is criminal." Unklesbay said several factors played into his decision, from witness accounts that described Hernandez as provoking the fight to a state law that allows merchants to detain suspected shoplifters. Another state law also allows people to use physical force when detaining others for law enforcement."
End quote.
A newspaper article indicated that the security guard had no problem whatsoever "taking down" Mr. Hernandez, so I believe that any "self-defense-in-fear-of-my life" defense is inapplicable.
Note the last two sentences in the quoted material. Any store employee, or agent can detain *anyone* they suspect of shoplifting. If that person resists, physical force can be used to detain the individual. It appears that if this escalates to *deadly force* that is okay too.
ARS 13-1805.5.C states: A merchant, or a merchant's agent or employee, with reasonable cause, may detain on the premises in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time any person suspected of shoplifting as defined in subsection A of this section for questioning or summoning a law enforcement officer.
ARS 13-1805.5.D states: Reasonable cause is a defense to a civil or criminal action against a peace officer, a merchant or an agent or employee of such merchant for false arrest, false or unlawful imprisonment or wrongful detention.
(I will write more about the above in another post.)
ARS 13-408 states: A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.
None of these sections seem to apply to shoplifting, but the DA obviously thinks they do.
So in Arizona anyway, if you leave the Borg and the buzzer goes off as you go out the door because the clerk didn't zap the rfid tag, and you keep walking, you can be killed. Who said the wild west was dead.
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Last year at a grocery store near where I live, the male suspect died.
He was stealing diapers I believe. He suffocated. The security guards held him on the ground with their knees on his chest. He couldn't breath. Suffocation by chest compression, should be covered in training courses.
John
Leon wrote:

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That is the chance the guy took, He lost this one.
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Is this what they call "compassionate conservatism?" That someone stealing deserves to die? Why not just cut off his hand as they do in less civilized countries?
This isn't an eye for an eye--this is a life for an eye, and that's not right. The guy deserved a trial and conviction within a legal system, not execution by a $8 an hour civilian. When we start allowing vigilante justice we are well down the road to barbarism.
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