Sawstop--the wrong marketing approach?

[Lobby Dosser]

It's a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy!!!

[ted harris]

Everyone else in this conversation has chosen not to make this a personal issue about each others woodworking skills, except you... My confidence level is just fine, thank you. Woodworking is what I do for a living. To my knowledge, there is no one else here that does what I do. There are less than 200 people in the world that chose my profession. I have never cut myself on a saw, or any machine while utilizing a rotational cutting blade...I have been doing it for 13 years as a living...and I mean full time...prolly average 60 or more hours a week...but that does not mean that accidents can't happen. We are, only human after all.

A two cent bandage injury is what you get when you have sawstop.

P.S. Just my two cents...

[ted harris]

Yasser Arafat had a Nobel Prize as well...

[Charlie Self]

GregP responds:

Maybe. But it's conjecture, not reality, and does not face the fact that he didn't publicly announce his products before he could supply them.

Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill

[Doug Miller]

Indeed it is... but I did not argue that an unfettered free market is a good thing. That's *your* strawman. I said no such thing.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[J. Clarke]

ted harris wrote:

You beat your head against a wall long enough and you finally quit trying. Sawstop probably wouldn't have been possible 20 years ago. And most manufacturers likely gave up looking for a way to stop the blade instantly on contact 40 years ago.

If the legislation says "shall stop the blade within x fractions of a revolution upon skin contact" or words to that effect, then it might be OK. If it says "must use Sawstop" then it's not.

Now, Sawstop is supposed to be bringing saws to market. If this is so all fired important to most woodworkers, then Sawstop will put Delta, Jet, Grizzly, Craftsman, and all the rest out of the sawmaking business. I predict that the market is going to just go *yawn*. And of course you are going to respond that we are all too stupid to look out for our own interest and so must be forced to do so by the government.

It's seldom "the common man" who "is using the laws to get better protection". It is usually the squeaky wheel getting the grease. I don't want a car with airbags, but the choice is that or an antique. I don't want the 5 mph bumpers that cost $2000 to fix if they get hit at 5.5 mph or at any other angle but square on and that add weight for precious little benefit. But I don't have a choice there either. I always wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle--I have no problem with the government setting safety standards for motorcycle helmets except that the Snell standards, which were around for years before the government got into the act and which any knowledgeable rider recognized are better researched and more stringent and at times have been in conflict with the government standards--but I don't like being told that I'm going to get a ticket if I decide one day not to for some reason (like for example last night some bastard stole it and I'm on the way to the store to get a new one). I always wear seat belts, but I resent the laws that say that if one day, on just one trip, I forget to buckle up, I can get stopped and searched and otherwise harassed by the police. If you ask "the common man" he'll generally tell you the same thing. But we _don't_ get asked, and when we vote out the bastards who enacted these idiotic laws the new bastards don't deliver on their promises and repeal them, instead they just pass their own bunch of idiotic laws. And so we have a body of statute law that even the lawyers can't keep up with, but "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Go down to the library. Look at your state laws and the US Code sitting on the shelf. Ask yourself what's wrong with this picture.

[J. Clarke]

Fnord.

[J. Clarke]

So have you ordered your Sawstop saw?

Huh? I don't smoke, but I resent being told that I can't. Again, it shouldn't be your choice what I do. This business of "no smoking in bars" is just going to end up encouraging organized crime. Even with a Constitutional amendment they couldn't stop drinking in bars, all that's going to happen is illegal "smokeasys" are going to start opening, and when they do that, since the proprietors are criminals anyway for allowing smoking on the premises they'll probably say to Hell with the whole body of law, then organized crime will step in and you've just created a new source of income for the mob. If people don't like smoking in bars they should go to different bars. Nobody ever died for not going to a bar--it's not like anybody is forced to go out and get drunk. But nonetheless we have those laws on the books. Further, I find it ludicrous that tobacco companies are forced now to pay for airtime to say what the government tells them to say and forbidden equal time to give their own side of the argument. And even with all this the anti-smoking zealots want more. Personally I got turned off on the whole anti-smoking thing ages ago.

[J. Clarke]

He may be having trouble raising venture capital. But that means that the venture capitalists are smelling a rat.

[J. Clarke]

Not in physics he didn't. And not two of them.

[J. Clarke]

Where did he get the saws? It can't be retrofitted, after all, so he couldn't have modified an existing saw. So he must have had one designed and hand built "on the day it was invented".

So where's the test report?

Huh? What are you expecting him to do about it? Redesign the whole system because you don't like the way it works? Give everybody who bought one their money back? Free cartridges for the rest of your life?

I don't think it ever "seemed impossible". Just that most people were looking for an American-style fix and he found a Japanese-style fix.

You would have paid the price of a cartridge for that if it had a Sawstop.

[Doug Miller]

Whether SawStop is, in fact, "something better" still remains to be seen. Time will tell. *IF* the company ever starts shipping product, that is.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Doug Miller]

Oh, bulls**t. Since when does the American Dream include petitioning the government to make your product mandatory after it fails in the marketplace?

Sounds like the Attorney Dream to me.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[GregP]

I can see that. Sounds a lot like stuff we've been hearing for years from the US auto industry.

[Grant P. Beagles]

[GregP]

That makes sense. But a fair number of the objections here boiled down to I've never been hurt and I never will get hurt; only careless people have accidents; and exaggerating the negatives, such as you have to ship your saw back if the safety device "fires."

[Tim Douglass]

I said nothing about your woodworking skills, thank you. I didn't express my thought well, but what I said was that based on what you perceive the risks and benefits of SawStop to be, you consider it a worthwhile purchase.

Again, I'm not making a point about skill levels, merely trying to establish that I have sufficient experience running a table saw to have reason to trust my techniques and safety practices. As a professional you probably run a TS as much in a day as I do in a month, maybe even more than that. Consider how that affects your perception of SawStop. If I were running a shop I might consider it as well - although only after it had established a solid track record in the market - I just don't care for being an unpaid beta tester.

I think you still miss my point. SawStop can turn a major injury into an insignificant one, but it can also turn a minor injury into a major expense. Minor injuries are, I suspect (but can't prove), much more common than major ones, therefore SS will normally be a net financial cost to the owner rather than saving thousands in e-room costs etc. The issue of pain and trauma is left up to the personal opinions of the operators.

Tim Douglass

[bridger]

more to the point is the time from when the tools were advertised for sale and when they were delivered.

[bridger]

ted harris, I think you are a moron. and a sheep. and a shill. maybe even a sock puppet.

so there. nyaah nyaah.

[bridger]

from rcooks post:

7) According to the power tool manufacturers, saw makers who tested SawStop reported an unacceptably large number of false responses -- both false positives (tripping unnecessarily) and false negatives (not tripping when it should. They also found a lot of other design issues and pointed out the SawStop would have particular problems with direct-drive or geared saws.

his behavior so far would seem to indicate the opposite.

like a fein multimaster?