REQ: New Yankee Workshop Deluxe Router Station Plans

[Tim Douglass]

So the author of a book should keep re-writing it and sending you new copies each year? The product may be complete garbage, but it is still under copyright. Copyright says nothing about quality or usability, or even if you can sue to get your money back, it simply says that *you* can't make copies to sell or give away.

If the product sucks why would you want to make copies to give away anyway?

-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

[Duane Bozarth]

Man, you're stretching for something to gaff over here, arntcha... :(

You can say whatever you want, and you'll undoubtedly be able to find some product somewhere that has any specific set of licensing agreement conditions you wish--folks are invariably creative that way.

For a simple copyright which is all that I even mentioned, all of these extraneous conditions are of no bearing whatsoever, there just crap you're making up to hear yourself type, I guess.

For your own use I don't think it actually defeats the intent of the copyright to make a single Braille or audio copy--certainly I would expect virtually any publisher would grant permission on the condition you did not resell the copy anyway if you were to feel compelled. Certainly there is a nation-wide organization which does precisely the audio transcription for the hearing impaired at libraries and other locations--I know as I have read for them. I'm not sure of what the organization did precisely, but I suspect they have a blanket arrangement w/ various publishers.

I'll reiterate--I was speaking oa a simple copyright in the context of the OP wishing to get a product for which rightfully he would have ahd to pay. The only extent of significance is that one of the purposes of copyright is specifically to prevent such copying. And, more specifically, my comment was addressed to the OP in that the purpose of internet from its origin as ARPAnet was to spread copyright work around willy-nilly--it was, in fact, a specific condition of use when I first had access at University to re-transmit such material.

[news.east.cox.net]

In spite of all the rationalizations offered and regardless if someone was willing to give you a copy of the plans, it's thievery, pure and simple. Norm charges for his plans and you are clearly aware of that fact. Like downloading music without the paying the royalty, just because it's available on the 'net doesn't mean that it's free. I guess that if your personal checking account or SSAN were given to me simply because it was available somewhere on the 'net, you'd be okay with me charging goods and services to you? I think not.

When you close your eyes at night, you can't but know that there is corruption in your heart.

[e-mail]

TIA

SeeAll

[no(SPAM)vasys]

Regarding ownership transfer my Windows XP EULA reads:

"Transfer to Third Party. The initial user of the Product may make a one-time transfer of the Product to another end user. The transfer has to include all component parts, media, printed materials, this EULA, and if applicable, the Certificate of Authenticity."

[Steve Peterson]

The OP probably isn't reading anymore, since he has gotten his plans. But my question is: why need a set of plans? If you've seen the item, and know its features, make it from scratch yourself. My router table is at least similar to Norm's, but I built it to fit a 24" x 36" piece of 1.5" butcher block I happened to have and which I used as a top. It has given me years of good service, and "I did it myself (thanks, DIY). You don't always need a prepared set of plans if you have an idea, a ruler, a pencil and some paper. My Dad was a custom cabinet maker; the only "plan" he ever worked from was a rough sketch and a good set of measurements.

Steve

When you close your eyes at night, you can't but know that there is corruption in your heart.

[e-mail]

TIA

SeeAll

[Morris Dovey]

| I've been using the internet for 15+ years and over those years the | web has been taken over by selfish individuals. The spirit of the | internet is to freely share information. When you have finished | with an item you post it for others to share. I suppose it is to | be expected that has more and more people use the medium | commercialism moves in. I will try other boards of which thankfully | there are many.

Hmmm. Not much sign of sharing in the other direction since 1981. Mind the wrap.

Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[fredfighter]

No need to apologize. It is legal to buy and sell coyrighted material. Bookstores do it all the time.

Evidently not.

[Chuck Taylor]

The EULA for copies of Windows XP distributed with (at least some) new computers prohibits transfer of the software.

Not that this has much to do with making and distributing copies of NYW project plans, of course.

[Dave]

What's wrong with top posting? After one has read the post a number of times as I'm sure most of us have, it is a pain in the ass to have to scroll down all the time to read a reply. I agree one should bottom post initially, but after the post has been shown a number of times why continue to bottom post??

[CW]

Correction. Theft still exists.

[HMFIC-1369]

Not stretching anything. You're the one guessing and making assumptions.. But your ther man huh?

[Mark & Juanita]

Maybe not. Maybe the person who e-mailed the plans then deleted them from his own computer and destroyed any hardcopies thereof. Maybe.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Andy McArdle]

Finally! A modicum of sense! :)

Design & build your own. Make mistakes. Fix the mistakes. Learn!

[Upscale]

I agree wholeheartedly. Isn't that why we all started woodworking, making something for yourself? It's not like we're operating a production line (at least not most of us) and mass producing things. Every project is unique in some way. The enjoyment comes from building to fit our current need and situation. I think that if someone is capable of properly building something from one of Norm's plans, they they're entirely capable of building from scratch. It's just a confidence thing.

I save occasional woodworking shows to DVD. Not for the exact plans, but for a general idea of how to build something and just for having the idea. If and when I get around to building any of those projects, I'll improve upon it so that it benefits me.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Both methods are right. Plans can be very educational for the person that is learning what joinery is good for certain situations. Plans serve as a guide and should be modified to suit the situation at hand

[Dave Hinz]

Exactly. There were clueless twits on the internet 15 years ago too; most of them either got a clue eventually, or went away. It's always funny when a persistantly clueless one thinks that their long presence somehow validates their opinion.

[Dave Hinz]

Well then, snip un-needed context (as I have done, and you didn't). You don't talk backwards, why write that way?

The post shouldn't _be_ seen multiple times. Put enough context in a layer or two deep to communicate what you're answering, and answer it. Move to the next point.

[SeeAll]

Hi group,

I've monitored all your utterings since my original request for plans. It appears many of you spend too much time sitting in front of a monitor pontificating, rather than constructing.

The reason I wanted the plans was to assist me with my own router table. To see if Norm had any innovative features I could adapt, I fear not the table is very simple in concept. In fact it has features which would cause many problems with dust accumulation around the router, possibly a fire risk with the very fine dust from MDF. One or two mentioned if I had seen the table, I haven't I have only seen it mentioned on the newsgroups and photo's on TNYW site.

BTW I have received 52 requests for copies of the plans. In view of the strong feelings within the group and the possibility of injury to potential builders I have decided not to forward them.

I look forward to comments

SeeAll

[Dave Hinz]

Your opinions about how others prioritize time is noted and given appropriate consideration.

(snip self-justification of why stealing plans without paying Norm is OK, because blah blah blah and that's somehow different than blah blah)

Riiiiiight. I don't believe at least 3 of your points in the above 2 sentences.

[Brian Siano]

Okay, okay, the whole issue of copyright is VERY CLEAR.

But look at this from a woodworking standpoint. I'm going to be redesigning my router table. Of course, I'll be looking at commercial products. I'll be studying photos and videos-- whatever I get for free on PBS or DIY, that is. I'll examine the photos of the router table Rockler sells, which seems pretty nice. And if I don't buy _that_... well, I will design and build my own.

I mean, I watched Norm's show on the router table, and liked the design. But I knew that I didn't need to buy the plans: I could watch his show and then design my own, with no problem, and it'd probably be closer to my own needs.

Now, if this guy wants plans handed to him, that's nice (if a bit infantile). But if this guys a woodworker, then _why doesn't he try to design one for himself_? I mean, I have no problem designing my workshop, my projects, jigs, etc. I like doing it. So why does this guy _need to buy plans_? Is he so bereft of ideas or creativity or simple engineering skill? Is he so lacking in imagination that he can't shape a tool to his own needs?

To me, this is like a wannabe journalist coming to a newsgroup and saying, "I want to write an article about third-world poverty. Can someone give me an article I can put my name on?"