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Perhaps you can enlighten us with the number of murders by gun crime both in the US and the UK then - just to prove you're right.
Remember to cite your sources.
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:37:03 +0100, Colin Wilson

Of course.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Note that those are total murders by all methods
Now lets look at those committed with firearms
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
Seems that you have more than your fair share of murders by means other than firearms.
So a murder by blunt object is superior to murder by bullet eh?
Oh..it should be noted that the UK has been under reporting its crime rate by a significant number of incidents. Millions in fact.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/05/ncrime05.xml&site=5&page=0
Now..lets look at gun crime in the UK shall we?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm
"By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.
You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England. "
"A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms.
When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge. "
Oh oh.....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece
Geeze..seems like its (murder) is out of control ..and they want to redefine it in the UK....
http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/docs/lc304.pdf
2006 totals of murders by country (by all methods)
United States:     12,658 United Kingdom:     850
US population 302,849,527 UK population 60,600,00
US population is nearly 5 times that of the UK
Adjusted UK murder rate is 4250
Murders committed by gang members in the US (ages 12- 30yrs) 8,239
12,658 minus 8239 = 4419 or 169 more in the US than in the UK.
Odd..shouldnt the numbers be radically different? Odd that with so many guns in the US, as opposed to so few in the UK...why is there only 169 more in the US than in the UK?
The numbers of course should be zero or close to it in the UK, with their draconian gun ban.
Why isnt it?
But then..that explains why rape, hot burglarly and assaults are higher in the UK, by an order of magntude than those in the US. Because its illegal to defend oneself in the UK.Ne?
gunner
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2640817.stm
Odd..while the crime rate in the US is falling like a rock..it seems to be skyrocketing in the UK, along with gun crime.
Strange how that happens
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wrote:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/05/ncrime05.xml&site=5&page=0
And other countries don't do that?
I betya they do.
tim
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tim..... wrote:

You might find http://www.statscom.org.uk/uploads/files/reports/Crime_Statistics_Review-final.pdf to be of interest. Among other things, they point out that in the UK the national crime reporting system has only been in place since 2002. In the US it has been in places since some time in the 1930s and it is generally accepted (at least among those who have been involved with the development of that system) that it initially badly underestimated the amount of crime that went on as the local departments on whose data it relies didn't bother to file reports--now it's mostly automated and tied into the National Crime Information Center. Still, some of the issues raised in the UK report also apply to the US--if nobody reports the crime then it doesn't go into the system for example.
Would be very interesting if the difference in US and worldwide crime rates turned out to be an artifact of the reporting.
--
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:45:10 +0100, "tim....."

When you can provide cites from major media in those countries themselves admitting it, please bring it forth.
Gunner
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wrote:

Aw come on.
Everyone knows that the press exagerate (in the UK anyway) and you want me to bring you press reports as *proof*!
tim
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So you're only 3 times more likely to be murdered in the US - so much for guns keeping crime down...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
Your stats are working great - we're only 27 times less likely to be murdered by a gun toting luntic
27 times more likely to be murdered by a gun - I wonder why...
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And lets not forget that more british soldiers were killed by septics than by enemy combatants in the first gulf war
--
geoff

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raden wrote:

Which only proves that you're not the supermen you claim to be, nor careful enough in a war zone.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
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Colin Wilson wrote:

Please tell us of one instance in which a gun was successfully tried for murder.
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So if the gun itself isn't the nutter, the gun is owned BY the nutter.
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Colin Wilson wrote:

And then it's the "nutter", the ownership or possession of firearm by which is unlawful everywhere in the United States, who commits the murder.
Now, why it is that killing someone with underwear is OK with you but not if a firearm is used?
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The bigest problems with having so many guns is that. 1) the nutters can get them more easily. 2) borderline nutters can get them easily. 3) young kids can, and do, get them to play with and kill others by mistake much too often. 4) killing or injuring someone at a distance is so easy,
And the reason that guns should be much more closely controlled is that with almost all other weapons you have to get close to the person you injure/kill.
But by controlled I mean that all guns and ammunition should be easily identifiable and the original owner made equally responsible for their use or misuse, with no exceptions at all, unless that owner could prove that they had sold the gun/ammo to another identifiable responsible person. Regrettably at this time that could not happen in any country where the law often lets people totally avoid responsibility. However if it could be achieved the level of gun related crime/accidents would drop at an amazing rate.
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>replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
>Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
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Jerome Meekings wrote:

Have any statistics to support any of those contentions?

Uh, you _want_ to get close to someone who is trying to kill you because?

Pie in the sky. Tell us a proven method of accomplishing all this "easy identification" that does not create another huge government beaurocracy.
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J. Clarke wrote:

Why don't you guys take this discussion to GUNS "R" US?
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Because then we wouldn't have the pleasure of your intelligent input.
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Ralph wrote:

Hey, ask the stupid Brit that just couldn't resist stirring the anthill.
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I'm sitting here with a beer having a good laugh at you
It's just so easy
Ha ha
YTC
--
geoff

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raden wrote:

So your purpose was to start a debate for your own amusement?
<plonk>
May as well plonk the newsgroup you rode in on. Hell, I think I'll plonk the whole uk. heirarchy while I'm about it.
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writes

I think his point is that guns can kill at a distance, which makes it easier to reach a state of mind where shooting someone is desirable, and where it carries less consequences.
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