RE: Squaring Rough Lumber

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On 6/16/2011 1:27 AM, CW wrote:

That should scare the hell out of him...
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Jack
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On 6/15/2011 11:20 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

That would be .01 correct?
I recently, in an uncontrolled spending spree, bought a Wixie angle gauge. I checked my table saw blade and fence, jointer fence, band saw table and every one, which I always set up with my dads very, very old and well used combination/tri square, were either 89.9 or 90.1. I reset them to exactly 90.0 which was so minimal (1/10th of a degree) as to be meaningless in my opinion. I then read the package and the Wixie is accurate to .1 degree, so I'm thinking there is even money on who was right, but at least I know my set up skills over the past 40 years is just as accurate as the fancy Wixie digital age gauge. My table saw fence was exactly 90
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your accuracy table, and for sure I'm not a machinist so when working with wood, 1/32 is as close as my eyes let me measure with any degree of accuracy.
Furthermore, I also recently bought a digital caliber at HF. It works great except it is way too accurate for me. Everything is like 87/124ths or similar, and I'm more interested in 11/16ths. I'd really like one that you could adjust the accuracy to what you need, and I always have trouble looking for an 87/124ths drill bit:-)
> 2. If it's out by one part in 200, it will be readily visible to > anyone who's looking for flaws.
5/1000ths of an inch? Really?
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Jack
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On 6/16/11 11:13 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Obviously, it depends on the length between to two points of reference. 1/32" difference on the width of a 5' board? Please. 1/32" difference in thickness of a 1/4" thick piece of molding 5" long? Most of us could see that, but I'm still with you.

You just need to get your drill bits from harbor freight, too! Last time I got harbor freight bits, there was an 87/124ths bit and lots of other xx/124th bits. :-)
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-MIKE-

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Yes. [...]
I'm not talking about measuring dimensions. I'm talking about relative proportions. [...]

You misunderstand.
Suppose you've constructed a frame of some sort -- say a cabinet carcase -- and you want to make sure it's square. Measuring the diagonals is an easy way to check for square. If one diagonal is, say, 20", and the other is 20.1" (one-tenth part in twenty, or one part in 200), that carcase will be visibly not square. If it's out by one part in 100, e.g. one diagonal 19.9" and the other 20.1", it will be not merely visibly, but *obviously*, out of square.

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I, too, thought this approach would suffice. I mean, if you have a planer, why use a joiner? And, if the board is wide enough, wouldn't a joiner be insufficient for the task? Mine is about 4"
Frankly, I don't understand how to flatten a six-inch wide board using a joiner - but I'm no expert (at anything).
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On 6/15/11 9:07 PM, Hoosierpopi wrote:

We're not talking about just cupping. We're talking about bow and twist, as well.
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No.
*jointer
Because a planer makes the opposite faces of a board parallel. By itself, it can't make either one of them straight. If one face of the board is already straight and flat before going into the planer, the board will come out like this || but if it looks like this (< going in, it will look like this (( coming out.

A jointer *alone* is insufficient for the task of squaring rough lumber, regardless of the sizes of either the jointer or the board: a jointer makes one face of a board straight and flat, but it can't make opposite faces parallel -- the reference surface and the cutting surface are on the same side of the board. You can joint one face of a board straight and flat, but if you flip it over and joint the other face, you have *no* guarantee that the two faces are parallel.
If the board is wider than the jointer, there are several approaches, including (but not necessarily limited to): - rip the board into section(s) narrow enough for the jointer, surface them separately, and edge-glue them back into a single plank - take it to someone who has a jointer wide enough - joint by hand with a jointer plane - build a sled for your thickness planer, shim the board on the sled appropriately, and flatten it in the planer.

There are lots of tutorials available on the web; Google is your friend here. Of course, the simplest method of flattening a six-inch board using a jointer begins with getting a six-inch jointer...
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Well said ...
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"Hoosierpopi" wrote:

------------------------------- I had a 4" bench top jointer which is probably very close to what you have.
Without building auxiliary infeed and outfeed tables, you are limited to stock that is less than 4" wide and 36" long.
You can still do a lot of work with that little fellow, but it does have the above limitations.
If you want to face joint boards wider than 4", either rip into widths less than 4", or get a wider jointer.
Of course there is always hand work.
Lew
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Yes, you are:
Steps 1 and 2: if the board is twisted, bowed, or warped going into the thickness planer, it will be twisted, bowed, or warped coming out, too.
Steps 3 and 4: if the board is still twisted, bowed, or warped at this stage, ripping it on the table saw is simply *begging* for a kickback.
Step 5: if the board is still twisted, bowed, or warped at this stage, you won't get square cuts on the chop saw.
Long story short -- planers won't correct twist, bow, or warp. That's what a jointer (or a jointer plane) is for.
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I wrote:

------------------------------------ The above is part of an intro wood working course, WMT-101, I took last year.
I came away from that course with a true appreciation of the value of a well tuned jointer when squaring rough lumber.
Of course it probably didn't hurt that I learned how to properly use a jointer in that class.
Prior to that my technique was home schooled and my results showed it.
Lew
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Could you elaborate a bit on that technique? My technique is pretty much home schooled as well, and I'd like to try to improve it.
Puckdropper
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I wrote:

-------------------------------- "Puckdropper" wrote:

------------------------------------ Most of it has do with the length of the bed.
Maintaining total support of the stock as it goes thru the cut process goes a long way toward good performance of the jointer.
If your present machine has short in/out beds, consider adding bed extensions that can be put in position during use.
I also am a believer in setting the cut depth to 1/32" and forget it.
Adequate push blocks with one having a hook cleat to insure positive control of the stock as it passes thru the jointer.
Those little plastic paddles covered with foam leave a lot to be desired IMHO.
Maintaining control of the stock keeps you warm and fuzzy<G>.
Feeding the stock thru the jointer in a smooth continuous motion also keeps you warm and fuzzy<G>.
HTH
Lew
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Thanks Lew. I've got to agree about those plastic paddles with foam. They don't seem to provide any pressure towards the bed at all, which means my board would have a chance to skip or otherwise move.
Puckdropper
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I wrote:

------------------------------- "Puckdropper" wrote:

------------------------------------ I found that a dedicated push paddle helped my results a bunch.
I'll try to describe it.
Start with a 3" W x 15"-18" L x 5/8" (11 ply) piece of die board.
This is the "base".
Cut a 5/8' W x 1/8" DP x 15"-18"dado centered.
Add 4"-5" W x 15"-18" L x 5/8" (11 ply) piece of die board.
This is the "web".
Glue the two boards together forming the letter "T".
Glue a 1/2" x 3/4" x 3" hardwood block, (aft end), across the underside of the "base" to form a hook which catches the end of the rough lumber when in use.
This is a workable jointer push block; however, you can show off your wood working skills by adding an oval cutout for your fingers in the "web"and tapering the excess "web" material aft of the finger oval.
Round some corners and add a spit coat of 1 lb shellac and you are good to go.
Have fun.
Lew
BTW, locate the finger oval about 1/3 back from the front of the ass'y.
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On 6/14/2011 11:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

In addition to what Lew said, and one of the key points, as I was taught in woodshop... the best results can be obtained by keeping the majority of any downward pressure necessary to control the stock on the _outfeed_ table.
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When jointing a board, the board naturally starts out on the infeed table and at some point pressure would have to be transitioned to the outfeed table. Is this just operator preference, or is there a point along the board where it's best to change from infeed pressure to outfeed pressure?
Puckdropper
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On 6/15/2011 10:58 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

I would change pressure to the out feed as soon as I could. Basically as soon as the out feed can support the board.
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On 6/15/2011 1:28 PM, Leon wrote:

Bingo ...
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On 6/15/11 7:31 AM, Swingman wrote:

Very true. I've also found, concerning downward pressure, the lighter the better. Too much downward pressure and you take the bow out, essentially doing what we're all saying a planer does, removing material from the entire length.
I certainly could use all the (good) planer technique advice I can get, so keep it coming.
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