Re: I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100.

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Andrew P wrote:

Gimme a break. Despite the sarcasm you got some well thought out replies -- appropriate to your business acumen. Live with it.
If you learned nothing from these posts, then you are a fool or worse. Think on that long and hard.
Come back when you have respect for other people in business.
And oh yes... I too would love to see the photos. Please some close ups showing the quality of the compound angle joints.
If you found that our comments were substantially out of place I will be pleased to eat crow publicly.
BTW: I'll bet you charge too much for your food -- considering that all you do is fling some ingredients into a pan, burn it for a few minutes and fling it on a plate (probably plastic).
Sorry -- couldn't resist the analogy.
Best wishes...
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
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I've eaten crow before, it's not that bad. I used this gourmet recipe..published on the net by:...my goodness...could it be the same Andrew?
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Robatoy wrote:

You need to ask -- with my luck?
probably has ingredients that give it an almond flavor.
-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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Andrew P wrote:

Or if you contact a manufacturer of food packaging they will probably provide you with a suitable prototype from their current production with the understanding that when you get your first round venture capital they'll fine tune it to your exact needs for the production runs.
Perhaps you'd have done better to say that you needed to make x number of plastic trays of thus and so form and could anybody give suggestions on a cheap way to make a mold.
If you could work with a _male_ mold instead of female it's 8 passes with the router from the looks of things, or it could be cut on a table saw for that matter, but would take more passes. If you absolutely _have_ to have a female mold then you could pull one in acrylic molding compound or fiberglass off of the male mold.
Making the mold you want directly in MDF without an NC machine and having it come out decent on the first try is going to be more effort than you expect.
--
--John
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That is why I never became rich. I need to learn to think outside the box. Excellent idea, John. (I'm miffed I didn't think of it.) That approach solves all problems with wall thicknesses etc. (I am absolutely serious..(it happens sometimes)..)
The Wreck rules! Kudos to Mr. Clarke.
*tip of the hat*
0?0
Rob
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Robatoy wrote:

Hope he doesn't spot that post. I did think of that but he asked for MDF eh? (And a mold.) And it is not what he specced. Sometimes the revenge is in delivering the product as requested.
That said - kudos to the gentleman (J. Clarke). He deserves them.
Hope Andrew gets it in MDF -- should be interesting.
The fellow got Several $K worth of good advice -- along with a lambasting true -- but he expressed precious little appreciation.
Typical chef... :-)
-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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The problem there is with webbing.
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wrote:

How much were you expecting this thing to cost ?
Now I'm pretty neutral here - I'm overseas: shipping would kill the deal -- so no axe grinding here.
But I looked at this thing and thought "No, can't make that for this much". It's the sharp internal corners - I can't rout those and I can't make them by any other technique for that price.
So I'm guessing that what's happened here is that you've drawn one picture that can be read two ways. Do you really _need_ these sharp internal corners ? They're going to cost you an additional three times the basic cost of a simply routed one.
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Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot. Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers, engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.
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Andrew P states:

Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Date: 17 Mar 2005 22:50:25 -0800 Local: Thurs, Mar 17 2005 10:50 pm Subject: Re: I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100. Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot. Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them
in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If
the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast
plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow
the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because
the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I
thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers, engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know
I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.<<
There are a lot of pros on this group. Why shouldn't there be? The major point seems to be, though, that as things progress you have changed your expressed requirements considerably. With the MDF, you'd have left someone unable to make the product you require, justifying withholding payment, because you didn't explain how you actually wanted it done, nor did you present options.
Basically, no one on here is a mind reader. Explain what you want. Be prepared to pay a reasonable price for it. A hundred bucks to cover materials and two days' work to keep my wife from bugging me about money for tools isn't my idea of a fair trade, especially when the original specs are so screwed up I'd end up with just the experience for my work.
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To be fair Charlie - isn't that the way it should go? A consumer knows what he ultimately needs, does some due diligence in attempting to get part of the way there and to be as demonstrative as he knows how to be (providing drawings that to him are detailed and explanatory), and then comes forward and submits his need, his due diligence effort and a proposed fee that he is willing to pay based on market research. I really didn't see anything in his posts that was demanding, was insistent, or otherwise less than workable. In fact, I've seen quite the opposite. He's already acknowledged some of the suggestions that have come up here - a good example being the suggestion of inverting the mold. Isn't that what dialog is all about? I know this - when I go to someone, prepared as best as I can possibly be, I find that it is almost unavoidable that there is some dialog between that person and myself with respect to alternative methods, etc. Things that I just didn't think of, for any number of reasons. That's just the way it should go. In this thread, that whole dynamic has been turned into some sort of reason to dump on this guy. Shame.

It may well be that the two prices he mentioned in another post are the absolute best prices he's going to be able to get, but at least from the perspective of the researched prices, he did offer a reasonable price. Perhaps not to all here, but again, this is primarily a hobbyist group and to a lot of hobbyists, that could very conceivably be a very fair price. Can't tear the guy up for asking.
At least one regular here took up the effort and took the design to product in what I believe was roughly an hour's time. That's $100/hour. I'd wager no one here knocks down that kind of money, even the pros. Double the effort - it's still $50/hour. Still probably well within the expectations of most shops and certainly for any amateur that's interested in that kind of work. Any more time than that and some will probably drop off due to the income/effort ratio, but again - in a hobbyist group, it still did not seem like an unreasonable expectation on the surface, that there would be people interested in the job.
I'd be interested in how well Morris' product fit the design specs provided. That's really the ultimate qualifier here. I'm not interested in whether it lead to a re-design, just in whether it met the spec. If it did, then Morris proved what everyone else just talked about, and he proved it to be different than what everyone else just talked about. If the design proved to be flawed, I'd also be interested in whether the OP was standing by with more funding to re-run a different design - in other words, was willing to pay for each product, regardless of whether it was what he was *really* after.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

I do that with a lot of stuff as a "learning exercise". It helps me to hit the ground running when customers walk in and ask: "Can you..." Dazzles the hell out of 'em when I can say that their latest nightmare will be ready by lunchtime. (-8

I don't have either the taper bit or the 3/16" ball mill (to get rid of the sharp angle between walls and floor) on hand, but if I have time today I'll cut his prototype mold with straight bits and shoot a photo. It'll "sorta" resemble Andrew's drawing, but won't be the "real deal".
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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Morris Dovey wrote:

Just before 5 I finally had time to slap a piece of MDF in the 'Bot and try my little part program. The mold took 10:10 (min:sec) to cut and has two errors:
[1] I displaced the taper cut by 1/16" up and right. [2] I didn't displace the right cut-off by a tool radius.
Otherwise the part came out pretty much as expected. I used a 1/4" instead of 1/2" down spiral to hog out the cavity because the 1/2" bit would leave an uncut area in the corners of the bottom. When I switched to 1/4" bit I also switched from one to two passes to cut down to the 1/2" depth (which would have been a single pass with the 1/2" bit).
There's a sketch and photo on A.B.P.W - the ridge around the bottom of the cavity would have been converted to a fillet if I'd had a 3/16" ball end cutter.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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Thanks for posting the follow-up Morris. I was quite interested in how you'd make out.
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-Mike-
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But, of course...

Easy to do Will. I've watched you give this your best shot at neutrality over the past day. Makes it easy to read in that context.
< snippage of a bunch of Will and Mike agreeing to disagree on some things, being not so far apart on some things, and otherwise well presented opinions that don't need to be objected to...>

Now that's something I can certainly step up to. Don't drink, but they do serve cokes in bars and I drink barrels of coffee a day, so I'm good with either idea...

And I'll admit, that I read into the tone that I perceived in the OP's post that he would. That's a big assumption and one that would need to be determined up front, but I didn't get the first impression that he was looking for some F*ck you deal out of the relationship.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Ah well.. everybody gets a shot now and then. LOL
Good one.
-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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Ah well.. everybody gets a shot now and then. LOL
Good one.
No - I was trying to acknowledge your efforts at neutral tone and state that I had indeed observed those efforts, so it would be easy for me to embrace that and put forward a neutral tone as well. I was trying to be complimentary. Sorry if it did not come across that way.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Don't apologize. My mistake. But I really did think...
Anyway -- I do respect the smarts I see on this group. You never know here when you are having your leg pulled -- and I probably did deserve a shot and assumed... Guess I'll shut up now. :-)
I wasn't sure actually and hence should have "shut up". LOL
Thank you for the tolerance. Respect your intelligence and thoughtfulness -- even if and when in complete disagreement. And that _is_ a sincere complement -- same to Andy Dingley -- and a few others..
-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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Mike Marlow wrote:
but I didn't get the first impression that he was

Looks like this is the fundamental issue .
(Not trying to get you out of context -- I believe you nailed the fundamental issue -- so am just trying to isolate it.)
Guess some of us decided that he was -- and that "the why" did not matter...
The "Why" could have been intent or naivety or some combination.
In my experience the result is usually the same -- supplier takes the hit if the job goes bad or takes too much work.
Other people likely have had the same experience and had the same thoughts - rightly or wrongly. (Other people may be better judges of character or intent...)
Guess the only debate should be on whether you allow the benefit of the doubt on these... With the problem being that if you "give" you must commit to spending the time and money to educate. (Been had before by people playing the sincere naif...)
Don't think it's worth my time debating this as I never did figure out the right answer before (I gave) and not likely to now. (Now I don't give.)
Wish I had some wisdom to offer -- but I don't since I never got it right before and am unlikely to in the future any further comment from me would likely (almost certainly) be pointless.
Feel free to offer any wisdom you have...
And your shot was right on -- I was anything but neutral. See above.
Really appreciate your time and thoughts. Best wishes.
Hope everyone learned something or this was pointless. :-)
-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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wrote:

I'm not surprised ! It was well out of line.
My point was that your original post was unclear - there were two ways to intepret it, for one the costing was reasonable, for the other it wasn't. But if someone wants to feel so offended about you expecting too much for too little, they should be carefult that that's really what you'd meant.
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