Re: I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100.

[Robatoy]

Nope, already sold them to Andrew, sorry. Got a C-note for them. US $. That is ..errrmm..*calculating*...enough in Kanuckistani Dnjeprs to put a kid through college.

[Robatoy]

That is why I never became rich. I need to learn to think outside the box. Excellent idea, John. (I'm miffed I didn't think of it.) That approach solves all problems with wall thicknesses etc. (I am absolutely serious..(it happens sometimes)..)

The Wreck rules! Kudos to Mr. Clarke.

*tip of the hat*

0?0

Rob

[Robatoy]

I've eaten crow before, it's not that bad. I used this gourmet recipe..published on the net by:...my goodness...could it be the same Andrew?

[WillR]

You need to ask -- with my luck?

probably has ingredients that give it an almond flavor.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

[WillR]

Hope he doesn't spot that post. I did think of that but he asked for MDF =

eh? (And a mold.) And it is not what he specced. Sometimes the revenge=20 is in delivering the product as requested.

That said - kudos to the gentleman (J. Clarke). He deserves them.

Hope Andrew gets it in MDF -- should be interesting.

The fellow got Several $K worth of good advice -- along with a=20 lambasting true -- but he expressed precious little appreciation.

Typical chef... :-)

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

[Andy Dingley]

How much were you expecting this thing to cost ?

Now I'm pretty neutral here - I'm overseas: shipping would kill the deal -- so no axe grinding here.

But I looked at this thing and thought "No, can't make that for this much". It's the sharp internal corners - I can't rout those and I can't make them by any other technique for that price.

So I'm guessing that what's happened here is that you've drawn one picture that can be read two ways. Do you really _need_ these sharp internal corners ? They're going to cost you an additional three times the basic cost of a simply routed one.

[Andrew P]

The problem there is with webbing.

[Andrew P]

Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot. Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers, engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.

[Charlie Self]

Andrew P states:

Newsgroups: rec.woodworking From: "Andrew P" - Find messages by this author Date: 17 Mar 2005 22:50:25 -0800 Local: Thurs, Mar 17 2005 10:50 pm Subject: Re: I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100. Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot. Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them

in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If

the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast

plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow

the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because

the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I

thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers, engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know

I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.

[Nero]

Makes a handy firelighter too, when you want to flame a few of those pesky christians.

[Andy Dingley]

I'm not surprised ! It was well out of line.

My point was that your original post was unclear - there were two ways to intepret it, for one the costing was reasonable, for the other it wasn't. But if someone wants to feel so offended about you expecting too much for too little, they should be carefult that that's really what you'd meant.

[Mike Marlow]

To be fair Charlie - isn't that the way it should go? A consumer knows what he ultimately needs, does some due diligence in attempting to get part of the way there and to be as demonstrative as he knows how to be (providing drawings that to him are detailed and explanatory), and then comes forward and submits his need, his due diligence effort and a proposed fee that he is willing to pay based on market research. I really didn't see anything in his posts that was demanding, was insistent, or otherwise less than workable. In fact, I've seen quite the opposite. He's already acknowledged some of the suggestions that have come up here - a good example being the suggestion of inverting the mold. Isn't that what dialog is all about? I know this - when I go to someone, prepared as best as I can possibly be, I find that it is almost unavoidable that there is some dialog between that person and myself with respect to alternative methods, etc. Things that I just didn't think of, for any number of reasons. That's just the way it should go. In this thread, that whole dynamic has been turned into some sort of reason to dump on this guy. Shame.

It may well be that the two prices he mentioned in another post are the absolute best prices he's going to be able to get, but at least from the perspective of the researched prices, he did offer a reasonable price. Perhaps not to all here, but again, this is primarily a hobbyist group and to a lot of hobbyists, that could very conceivably be a very fair price. Can't tear the guy up for asking.

At least one regular here took up the effort and took the design to product in what I believe was roughly an hour's time. That's $100/hour. I'd wager no one here knocks down that kind of money, even the pros. Double the effort - it's still $50/hour. Still probably well within the expectations of most shops and certainly for any amateur that's interested in that kind of work. Any more time than that and some will probably drop off due to the income/effort ratio, but again - in a hobbyist group, it still did not seem like an unreasonable expectation on the surface, that there would be people interested in the job.

I'd be interested in how well Morris' product fit the design specs provided. That's really the ultimate qualifier here. I'm not interested in whether it lead to a re-design, just in whether it met the spec. If it did, then Morris proved what everyone else just talked about, and he proved it to be different than what everyone else just talked about. If the design proved to be flawed, I'd also be interested in whether the OP was standing by with more funding to re-run a different design - in other words, was willing to pay for each product, regardless of whether it was what he was *really* after.

[WillR]

Someone here has pointed out (IMO) a much better way to approach this -- based on the bit I know from doing some work in plastics manufacturing...

Maybe you should read the posts doing your best to ignore anything you consider inflammatory..

Nice of you to re-think it and post this.

Actually everyone was reasonable -- in their own way.

It was probably the way you asked.

Even if you are pretty sure it is often wise to ask -- ...

What would be the cost? (Based on the design) Are there any obvious pitfalls? Is the design clear? Is there a better way? Cause maybe I don't know something...

An entirely different reaction might have ensued.

Chalk it up to a learning experience.

Note that the group does have "rec" in the heading. _Maybe_ everyone see it as a playground and a respite from work and sometimes difficult clients. (And maybe not too...)

Usenet can be pretty tough on people. Try not to lose any sleep. Your life does not depend on what we think. LOL

[WillR]

Andy:

Indulge me please if you have time...

This discussion is worth carrying on because there is something to learn =

here... For all of us.

Neutral Tone here...

It's easy to forget that that clarification time costs money. Hobbyist=20 or professional...

Rarely does a person who wants something made want to pay for=20 clarification (IMO). That conclusion was reached over a lot of years.

So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time=20 spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?

Remember the context of a small job. I have bid many large jobs. Yes I=20 know they can be worth some risk.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

[Morris Dovey]

I do that with a lot of stuff as a "learning exercise". It helps me to hit the ground running when customers walk in and ask: "Can you..." Dazzles the hell out of 'em when I can say that their latest nightmare will be ready by lunchtime. (-8

I don't have either the taper bit or the 3/16" ball mill (to get rid of the sharp angle between walls and floor) on hand, but if I have time today I'll cut his prototype mold with straight bits and shoot a photo. It'll "sorta" resemble Andrew's drawing, but won't be the "real deal".

[Mike Marlow]

Hey Will - can I chime in? If so, then IMHO, that clarification time is part of overhead. I personally feel that it's reasonable, especially for custom work.

BTW - if the answer to my question was "no", then kindly disregard the above statements.

[Andy Dingley]

Oh, I'd eat it - quite definitely. You have to factor that into your overheads for sure, so it all adds to the cost. However trying to _track_ the amount of this time would easily add up to even more effort.

[WillR]

No problem.

IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead. That's always the way it was=20 looked at by the manufacturing shops (custom shops, programming shops=20 etc.) I worked in/dealt with.... I still deal with engineers on (large)=20 foreign projects. I stay out of most things but I am usually clued in as =

to the charge structure as a courtesy (only) -- not as a necessity.=20 (i.e. it's none of my business -- but they don't want comments or=20 questions at the wrong time. LOL)

Is that reasonable IYO?

Many shops assign an overhead factor based on the job -- others do it=20 generally.

Suspect that you are hinting it should be absorbed in "the general cost=20 of doing business" -- but not sure. I was disabused of that notion long=20 ago: a. By cost accountants; b. By losing money on small jobs.

Feel free to comment. Would like to hear your opinion if I am close --=20 or correct me of any misunderstanding.

I have learned quite a bit about how people do business in WW from this=20 discussion. Not really sure where I stand yet. But I am leaning towards=20 the conservative costing approach I learned in the past -- so yes I=20 think (guess) you made some conclusions -- and were right if so.

=2E.And, I clearly feel that Larry J. was right in his original=20 assessment... And made the same one - just didn't comment first cause I=20 wanted to see the knowledge level in the group. It is impressive. (Not=20 that I agree with everyone on everything.)

Thanks.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

[WillR]

Do you add a portion of the overhead to each job as a matter of course?

I think that eating it would be a losing proposition -- and clearly=20 that's why I commented.

My (just) previous post makes that clear -- how my thinking runs.

IMO - not factoring in overhead (general or specific) is a disaster in=20 the making unless this is to gain a long term larger scale client or a=20 general class of business. In this case - except for Morris (maybe!) --=20 it would IMO be a losing proposition. And even then I have learned to be =

cautious and question my own motives. (The clients are usually clear...=20 superior work at a low price.)

Maybe I'm older than I realized and have been had too many times --=20 through exactly that thinking -- "throw it in overhead". Comment - not=20 criticism -- as clearly I have done this and the past an now believe I=20 was wrong.

Thanks for the thoughts...

Any more are welcome.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

[Mike Marlow]

But, of course...

Easy to do Will. I've watched you give this your best shot at neutrality over the past day. Makes it easy to read in that context.

< snippage of a bunch of Will and Mike agreeing to disagree on some things, being not so far apart on some things, and otherwise well presented opinions that don't need to be objected to...>

Now that's something I can certainly step up to. Don't drink, but they do serve cokes in bars and I drink barrels of coffee a day, so I'm good with either idea...

And I'll admit, that I read into the tone that I perceived in the OP's post that he would. That's a big assumption and one that would need to be determined up front, but I didn't get the first impression that he was looking for some F*ck you deal out of the relationship.