Outsourcing

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That is unfortunately something that is being lost in all this greed-driven outsourcing: the fact that if it creates sufficient unemployment a lot of people WON'T buy your product. Regardless of how el-cheapo it might be produced in Outer Mongolia. IOW, shoot yourself on the foot. Which is EXACTLY where this myopic outsourcing "easy-profit" mania is leading us.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
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Tim,
I have to admt I feel like a heel a bit arguing this subject with you. I really feel we are at separate ends of the spectrum and we really need to meet somewhere in the middle.
I understand what you are saying, in general, but the facts and figures you write about happen to be living, breathing human beings. And, at least in the IT industry, they are being used and abused terribly all in the name of globalization. Sure, this practice may help the bottom line but what price do you put on human beings?
I have included two recent articles about the subject. One, for sure, is simply a beat writer for a newspaper and may not have any credentials--I have no idea if he does or doesn't. The other is biggie in the computer trade press (you can see his bio at http://www.pcmag.com/author_bio/0,1772,a 3,00.asp).
Since I use Google to access this newsgroup, I see the baove did not come through as a link. Darn. I could publish it here if anybody wants me to.
With the above in mind, here are the links to the two articles:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/8566322.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp&1c
(Watch the word wrap!)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1579337,00.asp
I am sorry if I seem bitter because, well, I am. I feel as though I gave my livilihood away. Nay, I feel as though it was ripped away from me by people who can not code nearly as well as I can.
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Ray Kinzler wrote:

Don't. Our differences of opinion are about ideas. They have not been personal. We can disagree and be pleasant.

The fallacy in your argument is that these people are being 'used and abused'. They aren't (unless fraud or force are being used against them, in which case they should seek legal relief). They are facing a changing world. That means they too have to change to survive. If there aren't enought IT jobs to go around, then some of us are going to have to find other kinds of work to do, get retrained or whatever. Is it fun? No. But its necessary. Survival is always the province of those who are most adaptable.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/8566322.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp&1c
And now, a personal note:
I have a Master's in CS plus most of Ph.D. done. I have 20+ years of experience as an engineer, developer, and leader of technology organizations. I can't get a job. I haven't been able to for over 3 *years*. Frustrating? Yes. Bitter? No. Why? Because staying employable is *my* responsibility, not the responsibility of the Universe. I am likely going to have to take a position that is way outside my preferred field just to survive. But you know what? I refuse to be pissed off about it. Life is just too short to be bitter. I want to savor every minute I can, no matter how crappy moments like this are. It sounds really corny like some bad self-help book, but your attitude about life drives your success. If you wallow in misery and anger, you inhibit your own ability to succeed. The way you think dictates the way you act. And the way you act determines how well you succeed.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com
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lol... guess the whole H1B debate is unknown to you. It would make some sense before acusing someone of fallacious argument, if you actually knew what the arguments are.

What a humungously hypocritical statement.

Yes mommy.

Yeah, that's obvious in your desire to execute immigrants without documentation produced quickly enough or some pool slob who wants to drink out of your garden hose.

Sounds like your Tony Robbins tapes aren't working...
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They have, and they don't look good...

We had a prime minister over here who for years tried to convince us we had to become competitive when measured against countries that sleep their workers under a banana tree and feed them banana peel.
His period in government is now remembered as the worst period of economic mis-management ever in our short (200 year) history. I'm just wondering...

It's not, it can't be, it will NEVER be good for the citizens. It's all a load of pure unadulterated crap.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
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not to mention eventually all these people are gonna decide they want their mtv. its a short term solution.
randy
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wrote:

I'm from Earth, and our corporate executives are paid / bonused on short term goals. Why is a short term solution a problem from the executive suite / Wall Street angle?
Not to mention that many of us pee-ons buy mutual funds that put much of the pressure on the executives to operate with a short term vision.
It is one F'd up, complicated conundrum. <g>
Barry
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Not to mention - back closer to topic - tax laws which encourage landowners to remove all timber to 6" MBH to get a tax break rather than pay for trees to grow.
I pay 5 times what commercial forest does, 10 times what state or national forest does. Oh well, my youngest is already cruising for the timber he'll harvest at middle age.
OK, I'll put the tax assessment into the firebox where it belongs instead of the "to pay."

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Charlie:
I couldn't begin to tell how scary outsourcing is. I have seen hundreds of people with Oracle, Java, BEA, experience lose their jobs. Because of the position I'm in I travel to all of the big companies and work with CIO, Directors and EVERY company is outsourcing or is looking at it. Lou Dobbs is a hero to me because he is standing up to this cancer. It is not just IT jobs. It is friggin scary because they are good paying jobs.
Some positive

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As a director of an IT shop in a competitive industry, I say "Good!" Be scared, be very, very scared.
I've enough confidence in my skills -- and my team's -- to say "Bring 'em on."
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You don't get it.... It is not about skills.. it is about $$$$$$$$
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/story/0,10801,91916,00.html?from=story_kc
look at the payscale at the bottom of this article and honestly tell me if you can pay your staff a living wage and compete with those salaries of off shore. If you can, you should write a book, become a millionaire, and retire to your dream shop. ;)
And I admit it. I am Scared. I have 20 years in IT and I survived major layoffs the past 4 years at one of the largest software companies in the world. I have excellent skills. But I don't have a cavalier attitude about the IT industry as I once did.
As soon as SWMBO completes her masters and her teachers certfication and begins working as a teacher I can quit my job and start my own business. SWMBO used to be a Programmer Analyst before kids but decided it wasn't worth it to go back in to the IT Industry.
Rich
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:05:41 -0400, "RKON"

Maybe we CT tech guys should start a cabinet shop. <G>
Barry
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Better check the market for teachers with masters. Masters degrees _must_ be paid premium scale here - union rules. Schools can get lots of certified teachers at less cost . Junior colleges may hire, though.
My advisor warned me....

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I don't think she will have a problem because she is a Mathematics Teacher. There is plenty of demand. She will have her Masters by December.
Rich

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Then she still has time to check.

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I think I *do* get it. I'm fending off the bean counters as we speak. Dell's a good example - initial thoughts aligned with yours (it's $$ not skills). After trying it for a while, they realized they can't afford outsourcing their help desk.

Ahem. We CANNOT compete on salary! But we can compete! It's about *value*, not costs. Yes, the pendulum will swing as the bean counters move stuff offshore. But it'll come back when they realize there's more to quality software than $3/hour Level 5 programmers.

Me too! 'Cept, I've got 25. Scared is good. Makes you aware of the situation. Lying awake at night worrying about how we're going to fend off this trend is a good thing. I *know* I can compete and survive this. Hell, with a few hours of thought, I came up with a half dozen ways to *exploit* the situation.

That's good news! Congrats, especially to your wife - as we desperately need more (mo' better) teachers. I'll hang out in IT for awhile longer. Pay's pretty damed good, and I know I can kick some Offshore Butt if the need arises.
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mttt wrote:

Famous last words.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com
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Mike Marlow responds:

One hopes.
Charlie Self "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon Bonaparte
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what does outsourcing have to do with it? you can find incompetent tech support right here in the US.
randy

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