OT science question

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I saw two janitors sneaking out of a closet at the hospital... when they noticed that I had seen them, they certainly LOOKED concerned. Ipso facto... there *are* concerned janitors.
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Limp Arbor wrote:

"May", "might". You're going on like it's actually happened.

I see. When you are dying of cancer be sure to turn down any treatment for which the doctors cannot tell you "how & why they work".

It's not like that lab _invented_ hoof-and-mouth disease. They're trying to find ways to treat or prevent it. If they don't have samples of disease to work with then they can't do that. Are you saying that scientists should not research disease cures because there's a chance that the sample of the organism that they are working with might escape? Then how would treatments ever be developed?
I'm sorry, but you're going off the deep end here.

Al Gore is not a scientist, he's a politician. You _really_ need to learn the difference. This is the second time you've blamed science for the actions of a politician.

One side is engaging in political activism because they believe that the consequences if their untested models are correct are so dire that action must be taken. The other wants the models to be tested.

Uh, you clearly have not the slightest clue how science works. The idea is that you throw out an idea and it gets tested. If it doesn't pass the test then it was an invalid idea. This is the way science _works_. If all scientists agreed on everything then there would be no science happening.

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J. Clarke wrote:

It's not that far-fetched.
Monsanto tried to grow a test plot of genetically modified rice right in the middle of India's Basmati-growing region (and got spanked by the Indian government for the possibility of contaminating the rest of the region with patented rice).
In British Columbia, tens of thousands of atlantic salmon are escaping from fish farms each year, and there is evidence that they are outcompeting the native pacific salmon. It seems likely that genetically modified fish would escape at similar rates.
Chris
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Chris Friesen wrote:

Where, exactly, in India did this happen? Do you have a link? And what was the nature of the patent?

When one genetically modified fish escapes then I'll worry about it.
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J. Clarke wrote:

There's lots of information out there..ah, here we go.
Looks like I had some details wrong...it was the locals that burnt down a farm in Haryana, and now their Supreme Court has suspended all food trials.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6103700.stm
Here's another one from a while back...Monsanto patented the gene sequence of an existing wheat variety that is a staple in India.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/jan/31/gm.food
Monsanto has also tried to patent specific types of pigs. In both of these cases, they're patenting a discovery, rather than an invention. You're not supposed to be able to get patents on discoveries, but that doesn't seem to make any difference.
Chris
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Chris Friesen wrote:

Doesn't say anything there about Monsanto.

No, they _tried_ to patent it and got their asses kicked in court.

Once again, patents have to do with LAW, not SCIENCE. If you don't like the patent laws then blame the POLITICIANS not the SCIENTISTS.
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then you should have been worrying for years now, and its not one fish but 600,000
"Since 1996, almost 600,000 Atlantic salmon have escaped from net pens in Washington waters, and at least 60,000 into Canadian waters." source: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/fish22.shtml
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Limp Arbor wrote:

Read that article very carefully with a map in hand. The genetically engineered salmon are being raised on Prince Edward Island. The 600,000 salmon that have escaped escaped into the Pacific ocean. Since Prince Edward Island has the whole of North America between it and the Pacific Ocean one is hard pressed to imagine how such an escape could occur.
Clearly a case of fear-mongering, juxtaposing two unrelated events to lead to a false impression that they are related.
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No. It says that genetically engineered salmon are being raised on Prince Edward island. It does not say that _the_ 600,000 genetically engineered salmon that have escaped into the pacific Ocean escaped from Prince Edward Island. It says they escaped from net pens in Washington waters.
In fact, you quoted the relevant text above.

I think you read the article a bit hastily.
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That's an easy one to answer. Let people die off until someone who is resistant to the disease is found and then harvest his antibodies. Or else, breed them like a puppy mill until the resistance has been passed throughout society. :)
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snipped-for-privacy@teksavvy.com says...

ISTR that that has happened with the American Elm. They've found two Dutch Elm resistant trees, though I haven't heard any more for a couple of years.

I'll take a few of those Elm. Thanks.
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Make sure it is not a Siberian Elm, messy tree.
Mark
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The story I saw was definitely about Dutch Elm Disease resistant American Elms. I haven't heard anything more since, though.
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krw wrote:

I remember seeing that a couple of years ago. Hope it's going well.
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On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:18:44 -0700 (PDT), Limp Arbor wrote:

Are you asserting that Al Gore is correct?
Peer review (and potentially resulting disagreement among those peers) is necessary to the scientific method. These 31,000+ people are asserting their belief that the scientifc method hasn't been properly used in coming to the conclusion that global warming is human induced. I don't think their saying that is irresponsible, but rather quite the opposite.
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Limp Arbor wrote:

Which specific "experiments" were these?

So let's see, it treats a specific form of cancer but nobody knows why, so it should be withheld from dying patients until its mechanism is understood. Is that what you are saying?

What about "Plum Island"?

Or about irrational fear of science.

So when have "we"?
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sweet sawdust wrote:

What's NOT to be afraid of? I mean - just think of the lab coats! They have those big pockets in which all manner of things might be hidden. Anal probes for one - it's not "aliens" - it's scientists drugging and probing innocent citizens on lonely roads at night. Why?! Because you can't get the average guy to sit still for that kind of treatment - and so how else can these scientists get their "DATA"? They're not really doing it for the data you know, more for their own sick science-y pleasure.
UFOs are no more extraterrestrial than than your average Chevrolet. Scientists just have these ultra cool advanced vehicles in which they zip around doing their mischief. The selfish, evil science hogs don't want to share with us average Joes.
Even their lowly lab assistants get to fly around in spiffy black helicopters.
Flitting about and rectally violating the unsuspecting is merely a fun distraction for the science community. Their true evil intent is apparent in their "creation of new life forms" thing... First it's cloning individual cells. Next came plants. Then sheep and all manner of livestock. And now politicians!
Just look at W. He's obviously an early attempt. The limited intellect and the perpetually blank expression. The very definition of Zombie-like! And the ears. The all telling deformed ears. They just haven't been able to get those right in their creations.
Obama is obviously one of their experiments. (remember the ears) If you look closely you can even see the bolts in his neck. And that blank stare - as if he sees nothing but the objective of his programming.
Sciences earliest attempts at creating human-like beings were aimed at creating social leaders and philosophers. They wanted to change the way people think - to create a society in which science and scientists were revered. But their created life forms lack the mental capacity for philosophy and social engineering, so they settled for the next best thing. Politicians.
American scientists are now creating political leaders in order to further their evil agendas. To create strife and war to mask their horrible experiments, and to create need for new weapons and chemicals. The eras of greatest scientific advance have all been during wars. They got tired of waiting for new ones.
And it's hard to afford new deeper pocketed lab coats and ultra cool vehicles if the proletariat isn't taxed stiffly enough to fund them.
Zombie v.1 was to create strife, zombie v.2 is programmed to raise taxation to the 80% level as proscribed by the science elite.
Heaven help us when the yet to be revealed zombie v.3 is unleashed with its as of now secret mission.
Who's afraid of scientists? All those who would see beyond the veil of secrecy into the inner circle of science elite who would rule the world.
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Yup! You're certified. <G> That's some funny stuff right there....
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This pendulum swings. As a result of World War II, there was an explosion in science and its accompanying technology (the application of science to practical, commercialized consumer products). The results of all the research money that The War Department pumped into the scientific community produced not only technologies which helped the War Effort, but also created production capacity which could be shifted to making consumer, as opposed to military, products. The GI Bill also made it possible for returning vets to go to college, and industry was in need of engineers and scientists to either adapt and improve military products to consumer products. And in the late 40s and early 50s there was an epidemic of a horrible disease which struck acrossed racial and socio-economic boundaries - polio - which our most popular president happened to be a victim of.
And the new crop of scientists, along with some from the previous generation had a significantly different approach to why they "did science" - Jonas Salk being a wonderful example of this way of seeing things. Salk made polio basically a thing of the passed, not for fame and fortune, but because it needed doing.
Then along came Sputnik, the Space Race and John F. Kennedy's "We shall go to the moon by the end of decade" speech. Colleges and Universities cranked up their science and engineering departments and high school counselors started encouraging students to become scientists and engineers. The Boomers went either into "business" or "science and engineering". The latter meeting Kennedy's challenge - by mid 1969. The spinoffs of the Space Program never really got heralded - the semi-conductor industry whose products now permeate our society, satellites with all their capabilities - and don't forget TANG.
Then Pat Buchanon and Richard Nixon got together. Two very ambitious, and to my mind, ruthless, politicians. It was Buchanon who came up with a Divide & Conquer / Win At All Cost / Us vs THEM strategy for getting - and keeping - Richard M. Nixon in the White House. And one of the major elements of that strategy was to silence or marginalize the Ivory Towers Academics, the thinkers - the scientists and engineers swept into that garb of THEM. Another prong of the strategy was to bring those guided by "faith", which, by its very nature doesn't lend itself to critical thinking, or opposition to authority, into the new Big Tent being created. And they went after "liberal intellectuals" and ACADEMIA with avengence.
Now remember the context of Nixon's presidency. We were in a "war", though congress, which according to the Constitution, is the only branch of government which can "declare war", never did. And that "war" was "unpopular", especially with the college students who were about to be forced to become an active participant, and perhaps a victim, of that "war". There was a lot of oppostion to that war, and most of it was centered around "academia" since that was were future cannon fodder were concentrated. There were also two other movements coming into being - the Feminist Movement and the Environmental Movement. The latter had two major opponents - "industry" which wasn't happy with laws which prevented them from polluting the environment - for free - and what would become known as The Religious Right, now called Evangelicals, who weren't real thrilled with the idea of Feminists or Women's Liberation - "cause GOD said so"
So Pat put together a "coalition" of "minorities" and got Nixon elected and re-elected. To his credit, though Republicans blame it on Democrats and Tree Huggers, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was created - by Nixon.
Now Pat's Divide and Conquer / Them vs US approach to governing - or at least getting and keeping, power sort of got over shadowed by Nixon's paranoia - and the Plumbers and break ins and we got Gerald Ford - briefly - along with Dan Quail, who one could describe as the Anti-Intellectual, he not being able to spell potato - at a Spelling Bee.
And as is typical of such times, the country swung in the opposite direction from Law and Order - towards - a peanut famer - who actualy had been a governor AND a nuclear engineer as well. Carter came at governing from an engineer's perspective, not a politician's perspective - especially the New Politicians - the What's In It For ME?! folks. Not a good strategy within The Beltway.
The China Syndrome that nearly took place at Three Mile Island didn't do much for how people saw scientists and engineers - and Carter, being a nuclear engineer, it didn't help him much either. Nor did the Iran Hostage Crisis.
Which gets us to Ronald Reagan - and Star Wars - which the scientific community kept pointing out couldn't work 100% or even 80% of the time, if at all. Reagan kept saying it could and must in order to sell the voters on spending billions on what became The Strategic Defense Initiative - Star Wars being way too Science Fiction. Faced with facts, Ronnie ignored the scientists and engineers and trod right along, poo-poohing those nay sayer scientists. (This was another part of Pat's strategy - when faced with creditable oppostion, who have facts on their side, discredit them, not with facts, but with smear tactics. What do those dumb scientists know - this is AMERICA and WE can do any god damned things we chose to do - no matter what. And if that didn't work, call them Unpatriotic and Un-American - or - ATHEISTS!
Fortunately the Soviet Union went bankrupt before we did - and Gorbechov happened to want to change the Soviet System - which conveniently is overlooked in the American Version of The Fall of Communism and The Reagan Victory. And unlike the scientific community, which has a built in peer review process to act as bullshit filters, politically motivated authors can say anything they want about a historical event and aren't required to provide verifiable evidence to support their claim.
So given the politics of the last 30 years, and this administrations contempt for scientific evidence - is it any wonder scientists are not respected - or believed? You have heard of Intelligent Design right?
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sweet sawdust wrote:

Because Science is dispassionate, but Scientists are not. Oh, I know, peer review will fix that ... not. There is a scientist establishment. It decides what does- and does not get funding and/or publication. It makes little difference if the method of science leads to new and useful information if the high priests of the discipline are controlling the flow of money and thus the focus of research.
Scared? Not really. Disgusted with scientists who make common cause with scummy politicians - right and left - so that their pet causes get funded. There would be no particular outcry on the global warming "problem" today, for example, if it was not a rich money vein to be mined by scientists in the form of grants and other tax-funded money support.
Bah.
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