NOT a painter .. ping: Nailshooter, et al

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Not a "painter", don't play one on TV, and can only be reasonably certain about one color, "Black" ... sometimes.
Looking for input:
I need to paint a poplar/birch ply, 3' x 4' "Presentation Plaque" to match the last link below.
Here is the patient:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842045157562683986
My plan:
1. Crank up the HVLP sprayer and spray a couple of coats pf BIN
2. Sand lightly in between where needed.
3. Spray what? Now I'm at a loss. :)
The client wants the plaque to be "black" like the last photo in the pdf file. After discussion with him again this morning, we settled upon the concept of "satin" (he doesn't want it to look "wet") ... no problem there.
Here was his example:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5842234534392703906
Don't want to make a Federal case out of this, but I only want to do it once, so recommendations/ideas as far a type of paint, number of coats, flat black base coat(s) with use of a final clear coat, etc.?
I have to deliver this puppy Monday morning.
Any input is mucho appreciated (Wabbut ... hope you are not too es spensive.) :)
And .... yes, I HATE PAINT/PAINTING/ANY THING RE: PAINTING! ;)
Thanks,
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On 2/7/13 10:06 AM, Swingman wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842045157562683986
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5842234534392703906
Yeah, me, too. Hate it. I'm dealing with the same issue with trying to spray oil enamel on these bookcases. Since I'm a complete newbie at HVLP I can't give any useful advice, other than don't use it, unless you're very experienced with your HVLP sprayer.
I wanted something harder and faster drying for the shelves than the oil going on the rest of the cases. I ended up buying some of this.... http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid ...and it went on beautifully smooth and even. It dried very fast and can be re-coated within an hour. If you're talking Monday, I wouldn't want to be waiting 24 hours for oil paint out of a gallon can to dry.
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-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 2/7/2013 10:23 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

I was thinking about that very product. I've used it before on small bits of filler trim that needed to match a black appliance on kitchen cabinets, and it worke nicely.
I don't mind spraying the BIN with HVLP, but I hate the idea of spraying a high VOC paint to get something to dry faster, so the rattle can, considering the relative small size of the piece, might do the trick.
Did you use a topcoat, or just go with a satin finish?
Thanks ...
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On 2/7/13 10:48 AM, Swingman wrote:

Even *I* HVLP'd the BIN on nice and smooth... almost to a sheen after light sanding with 220. I chalk that up to the product, not the user. :-)

I actually bought gloss. I kept it on the horizontal surfaces of the shelves, but sprayed the shelf fronts with the same oil as the rest of the face frame, to match color. The Porter oil enamel white had a yellow tone, while the Rustoleum spray white had a grey tone.... comparatively speaking, of course, but enough to notice.
As for the Rustoleum, considering it's 15oz, the price is pretty good. The spray tip is nicer than most cans, and it's generous. I will say, make your sanding is pristine. The Rustoleum is very thin and shows every nook and cranny. Not than you can't lay it on thick... just that it flows very well.
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-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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Swingman wrote:

FWIW, the shinier it is the blacker it will look.
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dadiOH
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On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:48:29 -0700, Swingman wrote

Might not meet your criteria, but I needed to paint some shelves in an entertainment center black...
A thorough coat of rattle can flat black (no reason for the flat other than I had some on hand). This was followed by a finish of poly. I got the dead black finish with a nice hard layer for protection, worked great!
-Bruce
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On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 08:22:20 -0700, Bruce wrote

I should add that I smoothed out the spray paint with a gentle rub of 0000 wool before the poly. Ended up with a glass smooth surface. -Bruce
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On 2/7/13 1:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Easy for you to say! :-) I'm sure I'll get better, but my spraying ain't meeting my standards yet.
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-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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Well, opinions are like noses, everyone has one... so here's mine. First, no rattle cans on a job that size with those features/ dimensions/trim profiles. It would probably take 7 - 8 cans to get the perfect sheen you want, and even then you would have difficulty doing it on such flat surface. Imagine trying to get a small car hood surface perfect with a spray can...

Since we know each other, I will be more blunt than normal and just tell you what I would do without the candy coating.
No need to sand beyond 220 g. Not on any surface really, I think most people do that to put off the inevitable finishing stage a little longer...
And no sanding between coats. Not on primer, not on finish. Unless you have a bug that lands in the prime coat or you drop a cup of coffee on it while it is wet, no sanding. That is an artifact that has carefully passed down by non professionals for decades. Unless there is a problem in the finish itself, no need.
Put down two thin coats, and my big thing is to paint the primer like it is your finish coat. Don't slough off the finish because it is primer and you think you will sand out the imperfections. Your stroke, your application method and prep should be every bit as good as it is on the top coat.
So put down (spray) two thin coats (45 minutes between) of BIN and it should look like it is cast from white plastic. No witness lines, no sign anywhere that it was actually coated with anything. Just white. If you see a dust nib, carefully sand it down with 320 gr.

OK... you are now about 2 hours in on the project. (Spray, 45 min wait, then spray, then an hour plus wait for paint.) Although dry to the touch, the primer isn't cured out. SO NO SANDING. Sanding raised dust nibs, fouls the air in your finishing room and can leave witness lines under your top coat. Since it isn't fully cured, your oil based material will bond to it nicely, burning in just the right amount.

Satin makes the finish much easier. Even in an area with high reflectivity it will hide imperfections better than gloss.

OK... no more of that nonsense. There is every product under the sun for every application these days. All that shit about home brews, "something someone heard about" or a Google Guess doesn't count when you have a paying customer. Get the right product, apply correctly, collect the job and go on.
The downside to the rattle cans (along with the fact they don't put out enough material when applying) is a fast dry will murder you on any imperfections. (As a sidebar, if I was there I would apply a prime coat with my CAS setup, have a cup of coffee, the apply another. I would hold you hostage for a cup of day old gumbo, the apply the first coat of finish with enough flourish to make you think I was doing something special so I could get more gumbo at dinner...)
Since you don't have a lot of experience with spraying deep toned enamels, I would use a long pot life, long layout material. They are forgiving. If applied evenly and to the correct thickness, they will tighten up enough to cover some of your spray errors. Fast dry products need to be used on small projects that you can cover quickly as anything that is applied just a minute or so after first pass will show. In other words, if you get focused on spraying out the detailed profiles, your overspray will go on to the flats of this project. Then when you spray the flats, the overspray will show up under your top coat and give it a sand or orange peel finish. (Then of course, you must sand, which is a no-no.)
Even if you are an experienced finisher, painting black can be problematic. Painting black is fast dry is almost impossible. The stuff in the rattle can is a lacquer/enamel, not paint as we know it. Real fast dry enamels (like that really hot, high VOC stuff I like that you thin with xylene) cannot hold enough pigment to get to black. They are mostly solvent and don't have the body to hold pigment. The only way you can get to black fast dry from here is a two part catalysed finish, but I am remembering "no Federal case".
So use a long, oil based enamel. Plan your times of spray carefully so you can stay on schedule and you can make Monday with good weather. If it is really humid, the paint may not be 100% hard, but after a couple of hours after the final coat you can bring this into your house and let it finish out there. I have put sprayed in a large closet on site with my halogen work lights and they have cured right out.
My enamel of choice would be Sherwin Williams' "All Surface Enamel". It is harder than their normal enamels, and wears very well. Called my guy Brent at SW, and he confirmed this choice (again, limited on colors in the fast dry department). The product number for satin is A11B201 (you should verify) and it is available in the store in black. They have to mix it, but you can buy a quart of it, not a gallon. And... this is big... they have it in satin. The number I gave you reflects the satin base to be used.
IIRC, you have a two stage setup on your HVLP. This stuff is surprising viscous, so don't be fooled about the black thick syrup appearance. It is made to be sprayed. (As a thought... I might buy a couple of quarts, one to mix and test, one to finish coat.) Try hitting it with 10% (measure carefully...) and test out on a smooth surface. That should do it. However, if you get any spray problems, you can go to 20% thinned with no product desegregation. Try 10, 15, then 20% if you need to go there. And remember, you use long oils to improve adhesion and finished surface. If your finished surface is smooth when you spray it, your final surface should be fine.
This SW product is particularly forgiving and I don't think you will have any problems. It dries to the touch (depending on local weather) in about three hours. You can recoat in 8, but can wait as long as 36! Full strength in 21 days.
So my batting order would be:
1) Get both coats BIN on today 2) Buy paint today and determine thinning amount for your equipment by testing it out on some scrap, or my favorite, glossy cardboard. Both first and second coats should be applied at about 4 mil thick, which will give you a cured surface of about 1.5 mil per coat. Your goal is 3 mil finished when both coats are cured. Remember, a dollar bill is about three mil, so just a bit thicker than that. (Seriously, with this stuff you could probably go 5 - 6 mil of thinned product, but it would take too long to dry) 3) Tomorrow, inspect surface in the morning for an settling dust or bugs and spray first coat. NO sanding, NO scuff sand, NOTHING unless you need to remove a bug, a nib or flatten a drip. Try brushing off an contaminants, and only use 320 g and light strokes if you need to sand 4) Last thing before going to bed, spray second coat. inspect surface in the morning for an settling dust or bugs and spray first coat. NO sanding, NO scuff sand, NOTHING unless you need to remove a bug, a nib or flatten a drip. Try brushing off an contaminants, and only use 320 g and light strokes if you need to sand.
Remember, paint the detailed cornice work first, then the flats when spraying anything.
Your project will be dry to the touch when you get up. If you can, bring it in the house and let it sit out of the way Sat and Sun in a controlled temp/humidity environment.
This will give it more than 60 hours of total dry time, probably closer to 65 if you time it correctly. Last coat 6 pm on Friday, and if you deliver around noon on Mon, that would be about 12 in the garage, and another 50+ in a controlled environment, your house, to dry until delivery.
No hill for a climber, eh? Problem solved using all locally available products.

As you can see... not a problem.

I come there one time to paint one time but you say TOO HIY. You TOO HIY!! Too spensive!! I no pay!!
Seriously, call me on my cell if you have any problemos.
Robert
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On 2/7/13 1:46 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: <snip>

1. Forget everything I wrote. 2. WTF was this a week ago when I needed it!?!!!! :-)
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-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 2/7/2013 1:46 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You better come to Houston and do it for him. We'll have gumbo. ;~)
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On 2/7/2013 1:46 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

On schedule:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842350052432712850
Scroll Right for dos mas ....
Thanks, Robert!
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Shit!!! ... I may be testing that.
I had to thin to between 10 and 15% to get a good pattern, but, despite some test runs, my rhythm/groove with the BIN did not work as well with the thicker, oil based paint ... I got a bit too heavy handed in the cornice area, and a couple of other spots, and laid it on a bit too damned thick ... with resultant runs.
... looks like I'll be doing some sanding this evening before the last coat.
Why I farking hate painting ... if this had been a stain/topcoat job I'd been finished last night.
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On 2/7/2013 11:46 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Snipped all the great instruction....

The great news is that Robert is back and posting another great story on "how to do it"....
You have been missed...
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Thanks, Pat. I appreciate it. It was actually Karl that nudged be back here.
Although he may be regretting that now.... :^)
Robert
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On 2/8/2013 8:39 AM, Swingman wrote:

End result: The spray job, while not the "Steinway Piano" picture of perfection I would prefer, will suffice ... it is, after all NOT a farking Steinway Piano:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842947907740904994
Scroll right for cornice detail ...
(Tough to photograph "black" with an iPhone)
After thoroughly digesting all of Robert's advice, I'm convinced the product used will provide the client with a finish that will be much better suited for his purpose than anything I could have come up with myself.
Moral: You need to rely on expert advice, ask a real EXPERT ... with a verifiable and proven track record!
Thanks for all your help, Robert!
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On 2/9/2013 8:06 AM, Swingman wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842947907740904994

Looks Great! Nwo all you have left is all that white lettering. G,D,&R
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On 2/9/2013 8:39 AM, Leon wrote:

Thanks ... LOL, not my job, mon!
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https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842976039651757986
Yep, that's Linda's Great Aunt's antique dining table, in our dining room ... nuff said
(I mean, Robert/Nailshooter said he wanted 48 hours of cure time in a _temperature controlled_ environment, so be it!)
:)
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On 2/9/2013 9:37 AM, Swingman wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopPlaque#5842976039651757986

Looks like a good place to spray that final coat! LOL
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