Laquer finish for outside??


I've got a 70" x 44" x 4" red cedar burl that is going to become a patio table (will be absolutely beautiful) but i'm trying to figure out what to do for a finish (I'm in the Northwest). Was thinking of 4-5 coats of sprayed on lacquer to completely seal it as i've done alot of work with spraying before...just never for outside furniture. this burl has been dried for the past 20 years. Any suggestions on a finish, spar varnish, epoxy? or will the lacquer be sufficient. thanks
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mcgyver wrote: > I've got a 70" x 44" x 4" red cedar burl that is going to become a patio > table (will be absolutely beautiful) but i'm trying to figure out what to do > for a finish (I'm in the Northwest). Was thinking of 4-5 coats of sprayed > on lacquer to completely seal it as i've done alot of work with spraying > before...just never for outside furniture. this burl has been dried for the > past 20 years. Any suggestions on a finish, spar varnish, epoxy? or will > the lacquer be sufficient. thanks
I question whether lacquer will survive outside.
I would use a clear, 2 part polyurethane AKA: LPU, used on yachts.
Since you are in the Northwest, you are blessed with an active boat building/maintaining industry so there are knowledgeable people in the area.
Try contacting Sterling for some tech help.
BTW, this is the $200/gallon stuff, and worth it.
Good luck.
Lew
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mcgyver wrote:

Most lacquers are not made to be used outside with exposure to the elements, especially UV. There are some really neat conversion lacquers that are out there (I am using them on the exterior doors I refinish) but they are a specialty product. They can be hard and cranky to use, and it takes some practice. Like Lew's product, they are expensive.
I would think that the best procedure for you it to identify the delivery system (paint brush, high pressure spray, HVLP CAS gun, etc.) and then start looking at one of your local paint stores for a product that matches your delivery system. Ask a couple of different ones, as like this group there are many and differing opinions.
Robert
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Robert, Hey, I'm thinking of a "HVLP" gun with gravity can for a regular compressor and then painting interior 6 panel doors with latex. Your post reminded me of all the experience you have. What comments? Too thick to spray? How do you avoid dust/crap when on a job site? Shoot 'em vertical or laying on sawhorses? Email me if you'd rather. Thanks. TomNie

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Tom Nie wrote:

Hello, Tom. It's raining like hell here, so perfect time for this question.
A few months ago I was looking at different guns to use as a utility sprayer as opposed to using my Fuji Turbine or high pressure guns every time I needed to spray something. My criteria was to find a gun with a air cap (nozzle/needle assembly) that hit in between what I need for oil base and latex coatings. Something that would be really easy to clean. I found this gun:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber977
This is honestly a nice gun, and I cannot tell you how surprised I was. When I bought mine, it was on sale for $39, but it is well worth the $59 they have on the site. It is nicely polished and the trigger/packing is a smooth as my $300 guns. I was just looking for a gun that I could use on occasion for utility work as oppposed to finishing, but the more I use this one the more I like it. I can run it with my 2 1/5 compressor just fine, which is totally unlike the other conversion HVLPs that need around 14 cfm or so. That means I can take it out to the job and use my roll around compressor that is on the job to run my nail guns. That also means that I can do a lot of different finishing and priming by throwing the gun on the front seat instead of loading my HVLP turbine or my airless. So far I have shot primers, lacquers, oil based urethanes and industrial quick dry enamels with it and just love it.
Back to doors. When I spray a door, I do put it on saw horses for prep then finish. With latex products, they will dry, but they will stay soft. So I plywood the door hole it is from (unless it is new construction) so I can have the door for a while to let the finishes cure.
Here's what I do. Put the door on the horses and sand/fill/clean as needed. Then I drill two 1/4" (maybe 5/16") holes about 2 1/2" deep in the top and bottom of the door, space so that they are just a little less farther apart than the width of the sawhorses. Then I put a 40d nail in each hole and suspend the door by the nails over the saw horses (the door is held suspended by the nails). Wash the door with lacquer thinner to remove any grease, wax, or stearates from your sandpaper.
While the door is drying, mix your primer. For a door I can spray and not worry about fumes, I use the original KILZ, cut by about 5 - 10%. The hotter it is, the closer I get to 5%. You can get on this with you latex in about 30 - 45 minutes. (I know, the can says less...)
When working on a door I have to worry about the fumes, I use the water based KILZ 2, and thin it about 20% (OK - sometimes as much as 30% but then put on two coats) to spray with this gun. Sprays like a dream.
Mix your paint after you practice with some of it. Not being familiar with a certain piece of equipment makes me practice on scrap, not on projects. I would buy a gallon of the paint you like and start from there. To spray latex, you will need to keep the pressure up and thin it properly. Thin the paint you choose (this can really vary, so it is important to experiment) about 20%. I usually start the gun out around 20 pounds of pressure and then open the needle to get how much paint I want to come out at one time. Since it is latex, and door in your case, open the fan pattern up to about 7- 8" when you hold the spray tip of the gun about 8-10 inches off the surface. I work up the pressure to finish ratio to get what I want, using batches of different thinned mixes made in paper cups from the dollar store. If you do it that way, you will still have enough out of your gallon after experimenting to spray a couple of doors.
Remember that shooting HVLP is not high pressure. HVLP will shoot larger droplets of finish that will lay out when the finish dries and contracts. High pressure sprayers actually "atomize" the finish and spray out tiny droplets (requiring less thinning) that do the same thing, but just all over every where. Most people don't understand the big deal about HVLP as they never get their guns/finish mixture right, and they have almost as much overspray as they do with high pressure. Don't be afraid to thin more and turn that pressure down. I mean way down - you can always turn it right back up to find that sweet spot.
Write down the thin mix for the type of paint you use as well as the gun/compressor/regulator settings. When you decide to do another project with that paint, you will just need to fine tune before you start spraying.
Spray one side of the door, but not the edges. Flip the wet door over by the nails and edges, resting it on the nails again. Spray the edges (get in close as possible, move quickly to get as little as possible on the door face, then spray the door face. Let the door dry, spray, flip, repeat. You should be able to get the door primed and two coats of finish on it in a day. I usually go in the next day and spray a final coat if it is an exterior door. If it is interior woodwork, I am finished at two coats paint.
One more thing, if I am spraying outside and the project is in sunlight (definite no-no) or it is windy or buggy, I use one of those $49 canopies that the picnic guys use. The small one works great.
Let me know here if you got this, or if you need anything else.
Good luck!
Robert
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Robert,
KILLER - fantastic answer and info. I owe you one, bud. That nailer compressor deal is more than I hoped for. Thanks a TON for taking the time to help.
TomNie

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Tom Nie wrote:

Glad to help, Tom.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Which conversion lacquers do you like?
R
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RicodJour wrote:

I found these guys a while back when I was talking to a guy that does nothing but door refinishing.
http://kwickkleen.com
Once they found out what did for a living, they sent me a quart to try. I have been using their stuff ever since. Their staff in the office/tech support is 6 strong, each trained by the owner. The owner Dave managed to get me through some really sticky problems that I couldn't get through with other finishes. Namely, spraying lacquer on 98 degree days with 65% humidity. His personality is really dry, but since he designed the product he knows it personally inside and out. He is also a finisher himself, so he knows just how far to push his product.
Try it - you'll love it. I use the gloss fast dry poly, the semi gloss fast dry, their retarder, their #2 lacquer thinner (less VOCs) and their stripper. Like it all.
Robert
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mcgyver wrote:

as the brightwork on a wooden yacht. Maybe without the salt, which makes things easier. Way back in 1960's I had a wood sailboat. Every spring I would sand and varnish the cleats, the cockpit coaming, the tiller and the gunwales, all of which were oak. I used marine spar varnish, only obtainable from marine supply houses. It dried slowly and always stayed a little bit soft. Each year, by mid summer, the spar varnish would start peeling. And each mid summer I would sand and re varnish the bright work, 'cause after the varnish peeled off, the sun and the water turned the brightwork driftwood gray, and it would stay gray forever. Gray brightwork turned a sharp looking boat into an ugly scow, so revarnishing was virtuous. Bottom line, the old time marine spar varnish was only good for a couple of months in the weather. Then one year (maybe '62) my old man handed me a 1/2 gallon can of Sears poly-something interior floor varnish. He was a chem E, so I figured he knew something about paint & varnish. That Sears varnish lasted the entire season, not a peel, not a gray spot, and it still looked good when I hauled the boat out in Sept that season. Lesson. Modern (1960's) polyester or poly urethane varnishes are tougher than traditional marine spar varnish. I expect the yacht builders (those that still do bright wood trim) have something even better today. In fact, I would expect the yacht builders to use the best available stuff. If you could find a salty yachting type, he would likely know the best product. Reading the labels on cans at the store is perilous. Varnish makers all claim their product is the most wonderful, beautiful, long lasting coating. They also change the formula from time to time and they don't tell anyone. A can of SoandSo varnish from 2006 may be a whole new formula from the same maker's varnish of 2005. You never know. Advice from someone who uses the stuff frequently is well worth obtaining.
David Starr
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mcgyver wrote:

Something like Z Spar Flagship Varnish (www.jamestowndistributors.com is one source) should work here. I use this on cedar lawn funiture. It has serious UV blockers and is designed for severe environments. For long term protection plan on a lot of coats to start with an annual sand and two coats. A year's worth of direct sunlight will degrade the top two coats at most. This will out perform ordinary ureathane and spar varnishes in sunlight.
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