Hello (again) but I have a question

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Well, I am finally back, yes its been awhile but I finally got my new house complete with 3 car (err, I mean GREAT BIG workshop) garage. I went to Woodcraft and bought a mobility base for my table saw today and installed it. Though I have not yet had chance to use the saw as I am still putting it back together. My question is: How do these mobility bases fair? Are there any inherent problems with them. I did buy a better one , 4 corners with a 3/4 plywood for support. THe locks seem to work well enough. Anyway, I got the base installed on the saw and found a large open level spot on the floor and leveled the entire saw to that specific area. I figued that the best spot would be middle of the bay about 10 ft from the door.
Another question that I have : The garage IS heated, but with radiators that are supplied from the house oil boiler, problem is this is expensive ( went through 600.00 worth of oil in a month and a half). I do have a Volgesang Boxwood stove that I would like to use. Since this is also our garage and there will be fuel in the garage, will having this stove present a problem. I do also work on vehicles BUT nothing major. One friend mentioned that the fumes (if any) could be ignited by the stove when in operation. ANY THOUGHTS?
Searcher-
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| Well, I am finally back, yes its been awhile but I finally got my new house | complete with 3 car (err, I mean GREAT BIG workshop) garage. I went to | Woodcraft and bought a mobility base for my table saw today and installed | it. Though I have not yet had chance to use the saw as I am still putting it | back together. My question is: How do these mobility bases fair? Are there | any inherent problems with them. I did buy a better one , 4 corners with a | 3/4 plywood for support. THe locks seem to work well enough. Anyway, I got | the base installed on the saw and found a large open level spot on the floor | and leveled the entire saw to that specific area. I figued that the best | spot would be middle of the bay about 10 ft from the door. | | Another question that I have : The garage IS heated, but with radiators that | are supplied from the house oil boiler, problem is this is expensive ( went | through 600.00 worth of oil in a month and a half). I do have a Volgesang | Boxwood stove that I would like to use. Since this is also our garage and | there will be fuel in the garage, will having this stove present a problem. | I do also work on vehicles BUT nothing major. One friend mentioned that the | fumes (if any) could be ignited by the stove when in operation. ANY | THOUGHTS? | | | Searcher- | |
I had the same problem myself, and opted for a gas plasma unit mounted at the ceiling.
Most utilities, by government regulations, require that any open flame be at least 18 inches above floor level. With this in mind, mount your stove at this height, vent the smoke outside, and happy trails.
-- PDQ
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Searcher wrote:

Gee, I used to actually park vehicles in my garage that has a water heater and gas drier with pilot lights. The house (and attached garage) are still standing after 34 years. Amazing!
I presume you aren't going to be leaving open cans of fuel lying around?
Dave
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No, your right, I am not going to be leaving open fuel cans or other flammables lying around. But the question posed to me was: What if your changing a fuel filter and gas does leak on the ground. I guess it would take alot of fumes to ignite and that would happen only if I am too stupid to open the garage doors to vent the place. I have seen several woodshops with wood stoves, so I am not really concerned about wood dust in the air causing an explosion.
Searcher
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Searcher wrote:

Take the same precautions as I would working around gasoline with a pilot light of a water heater nearby. AVOID IT! Working on the vehicle with the possibility of a leakage of fuel is a hazard, stove or no stove, if there's a source of ignition and not a huge amount of air exchange. Even with the door open, the fumes can build up from a modest spill of gasoline. I'd wait until the weather was nice enough to work in the driveway. changing a fuel filter shouldn't result in a puddle of gas <g>. (I've changed filters literally hundreds of times, btw)
Dave
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Ah, the old "it works for me so it must be ok for everybody". We have had several fires in this community attributed to garage-based gas water heaters igniting gasoline vapor. Just because your garage hasn't burnt down doesn't mean it's safe, or a good idea.
You don't need open cans of fuel for fuel vapor. A lawnmower, weed trimmer, or fuel-rich mixture when starting your car will do it.
David wrote:

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Mike Berger wrote:

oh, so a garage is not a good place to park a vehicle? LOL! I never said that a gas LEAKING vehicle, parked inside a garage, was a safe thing, NOW DID I? So 100 million people need to immediately remove their vehicles from their garages. You are too much!
Dave
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Now that I just have to question. I was in the fire service for a lot of years and *never* responded to a fire from this cause. You have had "several"? Bull. So... how much gasoline vapor was necessay? How big was the explosion - because you do know, right, that those fumes wouldn't just burn - they would explode.

You clearly don't have a clue about this Mike. What is the concentration of fume that your lawn mower will generate? Here's hint - you can leave the gas cap completely off the tank and not evaporate enough gas fast enough to cause a problem with a water heater or furnace.
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Mike Marlow wrote:

It's the good old newgroup symptom. Thanks Mike Marlow for providing some real job experience to dispell some fear mongering.
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of
was
just
concentration of

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Ouch, though. Just now re-reading my own comments above - they sound much harsher than I had intended. Another good old newsgroup symptom. Sometimes even when you read them through before sending the post, you don't catch everything. My apologies to the other Mike - I did not intend to come across so harsh. I do agree with George though about things in newsgroups taking on a life of their own though. It's kind of like the dust collector explosion thing...
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You clearly don't ahve a clue about this Mike. You can pull the starter cord on a lawnmower with a dirty carburetor and generate plenty of fuel vapor.
Remember, we're talking about not just having fuel vapor, but an open ignition source (pilot flame) in the same enclosed space. That's not allowed by code around here anymore -- hasn't been for some time. But since it's not dangerous, maybe you can convince them to change that.
Mike Marlow wrote:

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Typical atheist -- I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist :-)
Ok, here are some citations for you: <http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/14/tech/main617547.shtml <http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/29/Northpinellas/Stored_gas_in_sealed_.shtml <http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03158.html>
Here's a quote from the US Consumer Products Safety Commission:
"Gas water heater ignition of flammable vapors is involved in nearly 800 residential fires, resulting in an average of five deaths and 130 injuries annually, according to commission estimates."
Despite your experience, it appears to be more common than you think.
Mike Marlow wrote:

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Or... I base my comments on some amount of knowledge (well... sometimes)

Cell phones - and they have precisely *what* to do with what we were discussing. They are a problem at gas pumps, as are ladie's stockings, and truck be liners, but pumping as is a lot different than the garage scenario we were discussing.

<http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/29/Northpinellas/Stored_gas_in_sealed_.shtml
Fumes so strong that the idiot closed the windows so it wouldn't get into the house. But... the fool didn't think to open a door to air the place out. Quite an extreme difference from what we were talking about... again.

Little boy burned when *gas spilled* near the water heater.

You should have included the rest of the quote...
" The fires typically occur when consumers use flammable liquids, usually gasoline, for cleaning purposes, or when a flammable liquid leaks or is spilled near the water heater. When the vapors come in contact with the appliance's burner or pilot light, the vapors ignite, causing a severe flashback fire."
Included in those statistics is propane leaks which ignite from pilot lights - or even from... turning on a light switch.

Or less common than you think. It does pay to read what it actually written, and not look for what you want to see in it.
I stand by my original question of your statement that these are common around you.
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Humbug. Pay attention to the "according to commission estimates" and all the other fudge words. Strange why they didn't provide actual data. Well maybe not strange, they probably don't have data that specific and combine data from many different cause. Besides 5 deaths and 130 injuries per year is minuscule and fits the description of highly uncommon. Also note that they say flammable vapors and hint at most are from gasoline. But they have no facts. How many of those were caused by spraying lacquer or shellac or due to some other non-gasoline product.
Note that by their own estimates their is less that one chance in 100 of being killed if you have a garage fire started by a gas water heater, and less than 17 percent chance of injury. Those are excellent odds in any type of accident.
And probably all of those deaths and injuries and fires could be avoided by exercise of a few adult brains. For example, who in their right mind stores gasoline in a garage, who starts or tries to start a gas engine in a closed garage. Or leaves flammable (and Toxic) substances where (untended, problem here?) children can get to them?
BTW, he hasn't seen it because it is rare (that about the same as just doesn't exist).
Mike Berger wrote:

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Gotta question that one. Cell phones *don't* generate sparks to ring. The ring tones are digitally generated and d/a converted to an analog signal fed to the speaker in the handset mouthpiece. There has to be more to that story, perhaps a static spark was coincidentally generated simultaneous with the cell phone ringing. All of the fear-mongering regarding cell phones has been the idea that it *might* be *possible* that there would be a spark generated from the battery if it were malfunctioning. Frankly, the fear seems just plain silly when you consider the fact the the pump itself is electronic in nature and the pump housing is hardly hermetically sealed.
While hardly a paragon of rigorous scientific inquiry, the guys at Mythbusters attempted to ignite a gasoline conflagration with a cell phone, they were remarkebly unsuccessful in doing so, despite some very abusive treatment of the cell phone in question.
Perhaps the best explanation comes from the Snopes reference: <http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp "News reports routinely attribute gas pump fires to cell phone use whenever a fire occurs at a service station where such a phone was in use at the time, and police and firefighters at the scene often simply assume the connection between the two to be valid. Later investigations, however, have always shown in such cases that the press reports were wrong, that something else touched off the fires, and the presence of cell phones was coincidental rather than causal. In a world where people are increasingly unwilling to allow even the possibility of something going wrong, however, we're bound to see even more regulations "protecting" us from yet another non-existent threat. "
As a matter of fact, the next page in the same Snopes page: "Update: Yes, we know about the 13 May 2004 gas station fire in New Paltz, New York, that news reports claimed was touched off by a cell phone. As our paragraph above notes, erroneous reports of this nature are not uncommon, because reporters (and other officials) base them upon assumptions made at the scene rather than upon later, more thorough investigations (which so far have always found something other than cell phones usually static electricity to be the igniting agent).
In May 2004, PEI posted on its web site the following assessment of the cause of that fire:
PEI has been in contact with the fire marshall in New Paltz, NY to learn more about this incident. It turns out the initial reports were not accurate. Patrick Koch, the fire chief of New Paltz, NY offered PEI this statement:
"After further investigation of the accident scene and another discussion with the victim of the May 13 gasoline station fire in New Paltz, I have concluded the source of ignition was from some source other than the cell phone the motorist was carrying. Although we will probably never know for sure, the source of ignition was most likely static discharge from the motorist himself to the nozzle dispensing gasoline." "
Of course it was a CBS story, so the credibility of the story (or at least the conclusions) is suspect to begin with.
Others have discussed the other cites

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Yup. The "cell phone causing gas pump fires" seems to be an urban legend.
See http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa062399.htm
Static electricity can be a cause. That's documented.
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phone,
This is good follow up stuff Mark. I had not ever spent anytime following up on the cell phone hype. I'd certainly heard that it was being given some credible thought, but never followed it any further than that.
BTW - the guys at Mythbusters - "hardly a paragon of rigorous scientific inquiry"? Whatchyou tryin' to say here...
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wrote:

... nothin, I wasn't sayin' nothin'. Didn't mean no disrespect,ya know?
:-)
Actually they do a pretty credible job, but it would be a hard sell to try to use them as fully reliable references because there will always be equal but opposite experts who will question the methodologies or approaches the Mythbusters take in the design of their experiments. One of the problems is that they can usually only do one instance of their experiment, so they don't get statistically representative samples. In some cases, that's not an issue because they are trying to demonstrate something, if it works once, they have achieved their goal, if it doesn't, that doesn't necessarily prove the negative.
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"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

Sometimes that is more than sufficient ... stubbing your toe, hitting your thumb with a hammer, laying a fat girl ...
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And that's why code requires the appliance with a pilot light to be 18" above the floor.
scott
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