LED Downlighters (Hello again, after many years)

[Anna Kettle]

Memory lane ... I first posted here before uk.d-i-y existed, when it was just a topic in uk.misc And then posted regularly on the newsgroup for several years as I was doing up my medieval farmhouse in Suffolk. I still recognise a few names from back then theskullster, R D S, Dave Plowman, John Rumm, The Natural Philsopher all look familiar. Others too. Hello!

One of the things I always enjoyed about UK.d-i-y was the breadth of independent thought and that has brought me back (to google groups this time) with a question to punt in the air

What do you think of LED downlighters? As a design feature

I will nail my colours to the mast and say that I think they are useful over kitchen worktops and in places like corridors and cupboards. I totally dislike them in living rooms and bedrooms cos when I recline back in a chair or in bed they are staring me straight in the eye

Now this may just be me. I don't like looking at those filament bulbs either and I always make my own lights obscure. Other people don't seem to have an issue with them.

Or could it be that splattering a property with downlights is an easy design option and no-one ever thinks about the aesthetics (what is beautiful about rows of dots on a ceiling. Nothing) or the glare

I am looking at the wiring diagram of a barn conversion which we are doing for sale and downlights are specified everywhere. I am trying to decide whether I should scrub them, which would be cheaper and which I think would be better. Or whether the fact that the property is for sale makes a difference. Why stand out from the crowd?

What do you think? Anna

[Adrian Caspersz]

Plenty of independent thought here about Brex...

and that has brought me back (to google groups this time) with a question to punt in the air

FWIW For enhanced TV viewing, I'm considering installing a 3" strip pelmet around all four sides of this room, with wall facing led strips hidden to throw RGB lighting down the walls, or maybe throw a bit upwards - which would probably mean suspension wires and a ledge for dust and spiders, er - nope.

Whatever, it means I avoid staring at the point sources as well.

[newshound]

Welcome back.

Totally agree with you about corridors, I transformed my gloomy hall with a pair of the non-replaceable bulb time as recommended by John Rumm. One of the things I like about them was that they have switchable colour temperature, and I could not decide which would be best with the existing decor.

For the kitchen, I have strip lights under the cupboards for the worktops. One of these days I'd like to replace the existing 2Ds in the ceiling probably with LED flat panels, to increase the light level.

I now have LED bulbs in the uplighters in my (low ceiling) cottage living room although it would be good to have ones with more oomph.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Hmm. Bit passé these days

Agree.

Yes.

It's a question of having confidence in your design decisions and knowing your target market.

I've seen horrendous things that people with money absolutely love, because people with money, mostly like to show that they have the money.

In which case the person to ask is the estate agent, not UK.d-i-y

Personally I have spot down lights in 'utility' areas and wall lamps and standards in 'living' areas.

[NY]

They are fine for general illumination in a living room or bedroom, but as you say they are very distracting if you are reclining in bed or a chair and you end up looking straight at them - and they are much brighter than the book that you are trying to read.

I turn off (or dim) LED downlighters when I'm trying to read. Phillips Hue and other similar technologies make it easy to dim or change the colour of a bulb to achieve this.

*Any* overhead light (even with a shade) can be distracting if you have to look straight at it. For reading, I like a light to come from behind, over my shoulder, so it illuminates the pages of the book and leaves the background of the room darker so your attention is focussed on the book.

I don't think LED downlighters (eg GU10) are any worse in this respect than tungsten or CFL ones, or bare bulbs of any technology.

[S Viemeister]

We have LED downlighters in the utility/laundry room, workshop, and shower room. They work well for general lighting, but I also have moveable floorlamps (with magnifiers) for close work on my machines. I don't like them in bedrooms or living rooms. When we redo the kitchen, we're considering downlighters there for general lighting, with strip lighting over the worktops.

[Andrew]

You could just buy a Phillips Ambilight TV to get the same effect :-)

[Andrew]

One of the grand designs programs showed someone with an old farmhouse that was demolished and rplaced with a new build. He used old cow drinkers, polished up and used as up-lighters by getting a sparky to fit halogen bulbs inside them. A while ago I believe.

There are some fantastic 'car boot sales' in France where you can pick up amazing old industrial lighting, and loads more and repurpose it.

In the UK, old Coughtrie industrial lamps sell for silly money on ebay.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Then have a choice of lighting for those conditions? Bedside lights. Table lights in a living room, or other forms you won't be looking at directly.

One beauty of downlighters is they are pretty unobtrusive when not in use. A reason they continue to be popular.

[tabbypurr]

Welcome back.

Downlights have several downsides.

- horrid glare when not standing

- patchy shadowy uneven lighting

- shining light at a carpet is not a recipe for energy efficiency.

- far more fittings are needed per lighting job due the unevneness & reduced spread of the light.

Despite this they have been popular due to their association with cinemas & ability to make surfaces a bit less boring.

I'd be inclined to look at other similarish properties for sale & see what works well, what doesn't.

NT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

A single naked pendant tungsten bulb or CFL should do exactly what you want, then.

[PeterC]

Must have been getting on 20 years ago, I was in John Lewis (the store!)looking around a department where almost everything was on shelves around the walls. Two things stood out: no moosick, blessedly quiet; well lit but not a lamp in sight. Can't remember how it was done. Might go back to see if it's still the same - some chance!

[Tim+]

Welcome back! Afraid the place has rather gone to the dogs in your absence but thankfully John Rumm keeps the signal to noise ratio high enough to make it worth still following. ;-)

I would concur.

I think for a lot of electricians and designers the thought processes go no further than ?down-lighters are trendy, therefore you can?t have too many of them?. It saves them having to think. Designing concealed uplighters say takes more time/money and most customers don?t complain about downlighters.

It?s a very personal thing. Nicely designed uplighters can provide a much nicer quality of light in many areas but if I was just renovating to sell on, I might well be tempted by the ?easy option? of downlighters.

Tim

[Adrian Caspersz]

This one ..

(still for sale)

[Theo]

Actually, a bare bulb isn't terrible in that respect. A bit lacking in finesse perhaps, but the light is OK as long as you don't stare at the bulb. Better than putting it in a shade that tunnels it to the floor.

One abode had downlighters in a grid all over the kitchen ceiling. The problem was they weren't aligned with anything, especially not the walls, so they lit the floor wonderfully, but the sink and work surfaces were in shadow. They were also wired in three rows - you could either have rows A and C or row B on (or all three), but the rows were at 90 degrees to most of the work surfaces. So you had settings of dingy in all the wrong places or blindingly bright and yet still dingy.

New place has small angled spots on a track, which actually aren't bad light-wise, if not the prettiest to look at. In need of finding a nice LED bulb given they probably take 200W per room.

Are there any good flat surface mount ceiling lights? Most of the LED lights I've seen still want recessing, even though the actual COB LED is a couple of mm thick. There are some industrial-looking panel lights, but nothing very attractive.

Theo

[spuorgelgoog]

Hello!

I don't like them.

But sufficient people either do, or expect them, that I'd probably put a couple of rows where people would expect them.

In a high ceiling barn conversion, 12volt spots on taut wires or slim track could actually work out cheaper as it's quicker to install, and you only have to leave a token number of spots for the buyers and they can put what they want where they want without mess.

Owain

[tabbypurr]

It doesn't. Are you going to stop saying totally stupid things, or should I plonk you?

[Andy Burns]

Or discover that Drew Pritchard has got there before you ...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Please do if it avoids your stupid comments on my posts.

[John Rumm]

Hello Anna, nice to hear from you...

Are you still in the world of fancy plaster work?

Yup I would concur. To an extent they are guilty of many of the same sins as any downlighter, although you do get a bit more choice in things like beam angle these days which can actually make them better general purpose light sources than the downlights of old.

Much depends on personal preference as well as choosing appropriate applications.

They may be an "easy" design option (although not necessarily an easy implementation one!)

They can work well in places where lots of directed beams of light are useful, or where you want to show off lots of shiny stuff with more obvious specular reflections. Kitchens spring to mind with some focused task lighting.

Having said that, for a kitchen I would prefer the main light to be indirect and diffuse, and then over counter lighting to be bright but fully concealed and omni directional. So for applications like I favour LED tape lighting just behind the pelmet on the under side of cabinets. So the only real scope for a downlight might be to put some light directly over a sink or appliance like a hob.

Things to consider...

More costly to wire obviously, although you could argue it gives some easy options to future owners since power is then available in lots of places should they want to opt for something different.

If used for general space lighting, they work better in places with high ceilings. For lower height places, a closer spacing of lower powered lamps my be more comfortable to live with.

"wall washer" style fitting can look good to add interest in a blank wall or even draw attention to something like a beamed wall with a more rustic look.

Narrow landings can look quite good with a central row of downlights, and have the advantage of being something you can't bump into (something I have personal issues with in older Suffolk properties, which were really not designed with my 6'3" frame in mind!)

For rooms with beamed ceilings they can be a way to integrate light fittings that otherwise don't tend to work as well aesthetically because the beams get in the way of fittings, or cast ugly shadows etc.

I suppose if designing to sell, then they probably have a bit more "wow" factor since many will not think though the implications of living with them at the time of purchase!