Festool and IWF

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Mike Marlow wrote:

From an old aphorism: "If wishes were fishes, the sea would be full." Similar to "If wishes were horses, the poor would all ride."
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On 9/7/2012 3:47 PM, HeyBub wrote:

False, Judge Sporkin, and established administrative law judge found exactly that. Moreover, the effects of these monopolistic practices has been, and is in front of your face for many, many years. No amount of legal proceedings or chicanery can alter that simple fact.

I have zero feeling about MS. I don't like their OS because it is crap.

I am convinced MS is making 30% profit on a junk product that everyone (90+ percent DT's) is using. Since I know there have been much, much better products out there, and I know first hand these products were not readily available to the public, and I know that in normal competitive markets, this cannot happen, something was amiss. Turns out plenty of others were also aware, and took MS to court, and after 4 years of testimony, the Judge hearing the testimony thought exactly as I and many others. (2+2=4).

The legal system only confirmed my view, and plenty of others view on the subject. What happened after that is quite obvious, when the victor in a hearing appeals the ruling. (2+2=7) You can't deal with that, that's your problem.

Henry Wallace said “Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion."

You are in denial.
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Jack wrote:

What do you not understand? Sporkin's ruling was vacated in a stunning rebuke of his activities, evident bias, and judicial misconduct. When a decision is vacated, it never happened.

And, again, the judge's ruling was struck down by the appellate court - by judges more fair and temperate than he.
It is not rational to hold up Sporkin's decision as indicative of anything other than judicial misconduct.
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On 9/3/2012 3:38 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yes, and it is junk.
If so, you must like it or you'd be using Apple products or Linux.
Or I am using an overpriced POS because they have cornered the market, which they did, via illegal, anti-competitive marketing practices, which they did, as proven in court.

Good for you. The pundits run around crucifying the "monopolistic" oil companies for making 8% profit margins. Meanwhile there are a ton of oil companies, and every one delivers top quality products at a good price (8% over cost)

Well, if you don't mind driving a POS Tribant, or using a POS OS, sure, good for them, but piss on us. There is a reason competition is good, monopolies are bad.
Apple seems to be up there profit wise too.
40%, compared to under 10% "windfall" profits of the oil companies.
No one is forcing anyone to buy MS products.
No one is forcing you to live on Earth, either.
Millions of

93% of the DT market at 30% profit margin with a POS product. Nothing going on there, right dumb ass!
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Of course you're using it. Naturally Microsoft is forcing you. Asshole +1.
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All you do is whine, whine, whine. You live in one of the greatest countries this world has ever seen, with the most rights and privileges ever known.
And what do you do with these rights? You WHINE incessantly about your government, your medical industry, your poor, whatever the topic, if it is in the US you WHINE about it.
Greedy, selfish, ignorant whiner. You deserve to have your face back slapped good and hard. You disgust me.
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Jack wrote:

Yep. And the verdict was vacated by the US Court of Appeals.
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On 9/7/2012 7:20 AM, HeyBub wrote:

Yes, and the public continues to be punished with inferior junk, whilst MS reaps 30% profit margins.
Quit pretending dead fish don't stink!
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Jack wrote:

Yep. And 90% of the desktop software got there by people who voted with their money. There are alternatives: Apple's Macintosh (but you have to join the religion to participate). And there's Linux which is a knock-off of a 40-year old operating system originally designed by a money-losing division of your local telephone company.
Take your pick.
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Last time I "genuflected" was after a golf cart accident in which I survived with no injury. My Roman Catholic golfing buddy went nuts. "Glory be," he said. "You've seen the light!"
"No," said I. "I was checking my watch and my wallet, my spectacles and my testicles."
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On 9/7/2012 3:51 PM, HeyBub wrote:

Yes, 90% of the people voted to use the worlds worst OS. They voted in the dark because of monopolistic practices of MS, clearly demonstrated by 4 years of testimony in front of an administrative law judge, who was aghast at the depth of MS's chicanery. He was the last to know, everyone else with experience and interest already was well aware of the obvious.
There are alternatives: Apple's Macintosh (but you have to join

Yawn!
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Jack wrote: If wishes were fishes...

Correct. The original verdict was against Microsoft and the Judge ordered the company broken up. The D.C. Court of Appeals, however, overturned the verdict. On September 6th, 2001, the DOJ announced it was dropping many of its demands, such as a breakup of the company. The company and the DOJ finally reached a settlement out of court.

Yep. Sporking ripped up the settlement agreement reached between the DOJ and MS. The US Court of Appeals, however, ripped up Sporkin's judgement, reinstated the original settlement, and barred Sporkin from further action on the case.

I don't think you understand that a monopoly is not only good, but is sanctioned and encouraged by the Constitution of the United States.
When I say monopolies are "good," I'm referring to those that are not regulated by some level of government. Cable TV comes to mind.
Consider the poster-boy for monopolies: Standard Oil. The company reduced the price of Kerosene from $3.00/gallon to less than five cents. In less than three years.
Oh, sure, the people who sold whale oil for illumination got hurt, but for millions of others, the night became bearable.
In the case of Microsoft, they have a competitor who is just as big and powerful as it is. The competitor is Microsoft itself. If the company does not produce and sell a new operating system, their revenue stream virtually dries up. The company HAS to compete with itself.
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On 9/7/2012 7:09 AM, HeyBub wrote:

No, after 4 years of testimony the judge found the consent decree reached by the DOJ and MS was insufficient and that the damages done to the public did not match the redress sought by the DOJ, so he told the DOJ to re-submit the redress with appropriate penalties. Instead, the DOJ appealed the ruling (the victory, and the curious part of the case, and imo the part that cost MS a ton of money and contributions to the Clinton administration.) This was in 1995, and the testimony began in 1991, and made it explicitly clear how MS managed to control and dominate the DT PC market with the worlds worst OS, and make 30% profit margins whilst screwing the public.

Yeah, I said that. How much do you think that cost MS in cash "donations" It would be like you suing Government Motors for damages when their brakes failed, winning 100 million in damages in court, and you appealing your victory, saying you only wanted 1 million in damages.

You are very right, I don't understand that. I don't think you understand that there are anti-trust laws that attempt to protect the public from unethical marketing practices that result in the public getting hosed, and MS is a PERFECT example of why these laws exist.

What you say is usually interesting, but often also ludicrous. Greed is good, monopolies are good, that sort of goofy stuff.

You do realize that if the public is limited to buying w/o competition, the product quality will not develop, prices will not reflect lowest possible, and people will end up running the worlds worst OS on their DT's with a dumb ass grin on their collective faces.

There is one of your ludicrous statements again. Monopoly, what monopoly, I compete with myself. You are special.
If the company does

Yep, that's another problem with monopolies, they can sell pure junk and then update it slightly every once in a while to force people to buy new junk. With normal competition, when something is produced that is 100's of times better and rock solid, you either keep up or go under. When it doesn't work that way, you know something is amiss, just as the good judge Sporkin correctly determined 17 years ago.
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Jack wrote:

Article I, Section 8 "[The Congress shall have the power...] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective writings and Discoveries."

Forgive me, but I don't see how MS is an example of why these anti-trust laws exist inasmuch as MS has never been found guilty of violating them.

Heh! So explain Kerosene.

Huh? I didn't say "what monopoly?" I agree that Microsoft is closeto being, if not an acutal, monopoly. So what?

1. The DC Court of Appeals said Sporkin was wrong, biased, and violated several canons of judicial ethics. That you continue to offer the ramblings of such a fool puts you on the wrong side of reason. 2. Nobody is forced to buy any offering of Microsoft. Period. In fact, nobody actually WANTS a Microsoft product. What they WANT is what the product delivers. 3. Many, many times in the real world, a product or service does not thrive because of the qualities you mention. A product or service becomes a winner, often, by the marketing and sales prowess of its makers. Like it or not, that's the way our economy works.
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On 8/28/2012 3:38 PM, Leon wrote:

All my face frames I make with pocket hole screws, no interest in doing it any other way.

Door frames I generally would prefer using the shaper with frame and panel bits, otherwise standard mortise and tenon or stub tenon works fine. Still not interested in the Domino.
If you are adding

I could see that for large panels, but not enough for me to go for a domino.
Do you think

Strength is a non-issue, I would never ever buy a domino because pocket holes or stub tenons were not strong enough. At least 10 billion frames and panels made w/o and no problems with strength.

You mean tenons there, but yes, I do. Not saying a domino has zero value, but yes, not worth much to me. I can see the value in wide edging on large plywood table top.

Well I didn't take it literally, much like when people say they would not like being forced to buy saw stop tech, I never thought they were worried about Federal agents dropping in in black helicopters forcing every man women and child to go out and buy a Saw Stop.
FWIW I don't know of any one that uses dry wall

Well, I don't know who they sell them too, and it seems neither do you, nor does my professional dry wall guy. My guess is he has seen them in use, but doesn't see the need, thus his comment.

I can assure you the same thing, also, whether he uses a festering "dust extractor" or a Fein "shop vacuum" makes little difference to the homeowner.

Still, if you are gutting a bathroom or a kitchen, you are going to make dust, and I don't think festool makes a dust free sledge or sawzall.

Well I think all the shop vacs are quieter than my 35 year old, but even my old one works fine and cleans nicely.

> And probably the reason there is a market for guys like us rather than

I changed quickly to pocket holes for face frames, because the value is obvious. I also see the value in a silent vacuum cleaner, but not enough to spend 3x's as much than for one damn near just as quiet. I see little/no value (to me) in a domino and I listened intently to all the arguments. Jury is still out on what sander, if any, I should replace my current one with. I don't make stuff like I did when I was younger, and gung ho, so even if the $400 overpriced festool sander is worth it, not sure it is to me, but, it is the one festool you have come close to talking me into, but I hate sanding and fun is an interesting concept I'm having trouble resisting (or believing, but believe it or not, I do value your opinions:-)

Huh? I wrote my first computer program in 1965, but no clue why you ask?
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*snip*

*snip*
There are quieter vacuums available for reasonable amounts, but they're not as quiet as the more expensive ones. However, chances are good the reduction in noise isn't what drives the price up, it's HEPA certification.
I believe both the Fein and Festool vacs are HEPA certified.
Puckdropper
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On 8/25/2012 8:37 PM, basilisk wrote:

If those were his exact words, he was being tacky.
But Festool has one price. The only way to get a reduced price that I know of is either buying at an introductory price, buying in combination with a Festool Vac, buying a reduced discontinued item, buying from a company that is going out of business/no longer going to carry Festool, and or IIRC buying the occasional refurbished unit directly from Festool.
Their tools are worth every penny you spend and are a good value if you actually have a need for this quality of tool.
The good thing about paying the same price as every one else, regardless of where you live, is that you do not have to worry that you are paying more than what you would pay anywhere else. Support your local dealer!
Is Festool expensive? Yes, to some. Is PC expensive? Yes, to some. Is Ryopbi expensive? Yes, to some. Is Harbor Freight expensive? Yes, to some.
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Exactly. They are introducing some new tools for sale starting in October. Watch the sales Leon mentioned. And do support your local dealer.
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Han
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On 8/26/2012 8:32 AM, Han wrote:

Hey Han, have you seen the NEW Festool Impact Driver? Huh, did ya, did ya? LOL
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I saw something like that in the email I got. Seems like that is an essential pice of equipment for you and Karl. What about the router table?
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Han
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