Festool and IWF

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On 8/28/2012 1:46 PM, Dave wrote:

Mike does not need to own a festering tool to know that $600 for a shop vac is a lot of money for a shop vac, excuse me, a "dust extractor" Moreover, considering Mike paints cars for a hobby at least, he knows all about sanding, sanding tools, and sanding noise. He knows enough about it to recognize bull (hype).
Also, anyone that has used tools for most of their life can quickly decide if they need a $600 festering drill or a $200 non-festering drill. There is a reason Festool green is not used by everyone in the business (no one in the business that I asked) Also, most people with years of experience can laugh at dumb asses that think they can create masterpieces if they just go out and spend their wives life savings on the most expensive tools money can buy. It don't work that way.
Lastly, my sander has 8 holes and is so dust free I need no mask, see no dust, when I hook up my 35 year old shop vac, I mean "dust extractor" to it, or even my even older whole shop central dust collector (extractor). I am certain I could care less about a festering tools one extra hole, or claims of dust free usage. I am very interested in it's durability, power, and a few other features that had me teetering more than once on purchase. You can bet I can recognize the hype that I need to invest $1200 in a shop vac and sander just to make less dust when dust is already a non-issue with my 8 hole sander.
Oh, and I don't need or want a domino to make drawers, or to glue up wide boards, or about 90% of the things they are used for.
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Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack? Someone unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might think people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
Do you own *any* Festool products Jack? Have you ever even tried one or more of their products out?
I'm not attacking you, just your statement that seems to be rife with bias for some reason.
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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:39:56 -0400, Dave wrote:

Some folks do buy for that reason - I've seen it :-).
Many years ago I was looking for a scroll saw. I read a lot of reviews and looked at a lot of saws. The consensus seemed to be that the DeWalt was almost as good as the top of the line saws at about half the price. So that's what I bought.
That pretty much describes my feelings about Festool. From what I can tell they really are top of the line, but until money is no object, I'll take the runner-up.
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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:51:18 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard

Sure, I know it too. But, it's not near as universal as some would have us believe.

And that's why the runner ups will always thrive. I've got one or four routers sitting here that have served me for a long time. Would I like a $1000 Festool OF 2200? You're damned right I would, but at this point in my life it can't make enough of a change for me to commit. And, I need the money for other things.
But, I do own several other Festool products, the Domino being the most important one. (It's actually Leon's fault.) After seeing what it could do compared to my lowly biscuit joiner, and with copious amounts of questions happily answered by Leon, I ran out to get one. Haven't regretted it one day since.
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On 8/27/2012 9:39 AM, Dave wrote:

Personal opinion based on many, many years of experience.

Well, I did mention rich bankers that wanted the best money could buy.

Hell no, but you wanna send me one I'll be more than happy to play with it. Same with a Bentely or a bottle of Montrachet 1978. I won't try the booze though.
Have you ever even tried one or more of their products out?
Only at the store, but I don't need to try one out to know what they cost. My statements do not question there quality, just the price.
I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was having a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them were tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall guy, and a body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for around 50 years, and still working. 3 were mid forties and only been doing it for 20 some years. I asked each one of them about Festools, and only one ever heard of them. He was a contractor and he said he didn't own any because they cost too much.
I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.

My guess is because you don't like what I said. No bias at all, just my opinion, based on personal experience with people and tools. The "bias" my friend is all yours. I know that from experience also.
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On 8/27/2012 3:27 PM, Jack wrote:

Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome living, wish that they could retire? Is this low class watering hole a level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people drinking ripple? What quality of tools do you think the homeless use, do you think that perhaps they would think what you pay for tools is too much? It is all relative.

I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the real thing just because they don't use Festool. When I was in the automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I was the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several made very good livings. One in particular was about two years younger than me, 27, and very often was the subject of conversation at the owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular mechanic very often made more money per month than the owner. We are talking in excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly the real thing too and bought the finest tools offered.

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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:09:36 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

Some of what you say is ultimately true, but then, the Domino is what I first think of when I think "Festool".
My main interest in woodworking is cabinetmaking. Although I haven't done it professionally for quite a few years, to the greatest extent, I've used the same tried and true actions and tools to build my cabinets. That's changed marginally over the years.
Enter the Domino. Now my cabinetmaking goes faster, is easier, more exact and very much more efficient.
What if any tool have you ever owned that had a similar impact on you Mike? I'm not usually the one to go overboard with a new tool, but the impact the Domino had on my woodworking was profound. What else can I say?
If you don't have a use for one, then no problem. But if you do have a use for one and more than often than not, there's no substitute. And that really has very little to do with the money.
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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:32:29 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

Depends on how you define the differences in this case. Without a doubt, a dovetail joint has more glue edges which certainly offers greater and stronger joints.
But, dovetails take longer to create, are certainly more difficult to create and if you screw up one, the whole project is most likely ruined. Additionally, dovetails are very much a personal choice when considering how you want your projects to look.
Now the Domino. It's faster to use, easier to use, may offer some leeway if you make a mistake and gives a clean, simple look with all of the joining mechanism of itself hidden.
Two different animals as far as I'm concerned. It's like comparing an Aston Martin Vanquish to a Ford, any ford. They're two different beasts and meant to be used differently.
Yeah, I know, Festool products cost more than the Aston Martin too. :)
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On 8/27/2012 8:10 PM, Leon wrote:

Nice try, but stupid. By "low class" I meant it was not a club that cost $50 grand a year to belong.

Oh, damn, I forgot, you think a caddy truck is junk and I reckon drink $500 bottles of wine whilst sucking up dirt with your $500 festering vacuum cleaner.

No, they wouldn't I don't pay $500 for a damn vac.

That's for sure.

They are the "real thing" because they are professionals that have been in the business for 20 to 50 years. I know it must really piss you off that most in the trades don't use festering tools, but that's how it is.
When I was in the

My guess is every one of the guys I mentioned make more money than the other 35-40 mechanics you had working for you. Two of them make more in a week than your guy makes a month. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but, if you want to impinge upon their skills in the trades because they don't use, or even heard of festools, you are blowing smoke.
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On 8/28/2012 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:snip

I am not trying to pull anything here, I am only trying to show you that while you may think that Festool is over priced there are many more people that believe that the brand of tools you use are overpriced. It is all relative.
For you Festool may not make sense, I get that, I have been there. But for me, and doing this" for hire" since 1997, my quality of work has at least maintained and probably gotten better with the Domino and track saw in particular. And for sure I am saving days if not weeks on large jobs. That last fact alone has by far justified the extra cost of the Festool tools that I have purchased. Keep in mind that I have used "thousands" of Domino floating tenons, and in most cases you have to cut double very close tolerance mortises for each of those Domino tenons. Would a biscuit joiner work, yes in about 25% of my needs.

No, just making a comparison to what you might consider a level of quality and what I consider a level of quality and what someone else may consider a level of quality. And I am still nowhere near as good as Tom Playman used to be. Just because yo know a group of guys that do what they do with a certain priced tool does not mean that they are the best at what they do.

And they don't pay as much as what you do either.

Being a pro for 20~50 years does not prove anything. I am sure thse guys are great at what they do. That does not mean that they doe the absolute best job. I am not pissed at all, If I were not better than the average pro wold not be picking and choosing the work I do. I lot of other pros work results make me look good.

Perhaps every one of the guys your mentioned made more money that any of my mechanics and even in 1983 dollars. The fact remained that the more expensive time saver tools that my guy used enabled him to make that large salary. I did not know any better back then and questioned him about the money he spent on his tools. He reminded me how he would save contaminated diesel fuel and put it in the 55 gal drum in the bed of his diesel Pickup. He seldom paid for fuel. He did not spend money unless he could justify the cost.
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On 8/28/2012 1:53 PM, Leon wrote:

Do that to your hearts content, but I never questioned the "quality" of Festools. I have, and do question their prices and I believe in the laws of diminishing returns.
And I am still nowhere near as good as Tom

I don't know anyone that is "best at what they do". I never said the professionals that I asked about festools were the best on earth, but they have been in the business professionally for many, many years and only one ever heard of festool. This surprised even me, considering it is not just them, but to never heard of festool, that means the people working for them and around them don't use them either. That doesn't mean festools are junk, but it means you and swing belittling people because they don't recognize festool as the only way to go is more than a little pompous.

It proves they are professionals and they don't use festering tools.
I am sure thse guys are great at what they do.
I am too.
That does not mean that they doe the absolute best job.
Well, they may make more noise than you do, hard to say, but they are not "bit players" and from what I see and hear, you would be lucky if you could afford them, and manage to hire them. They are not fly by night.
I am not pissed at all, If I were not better than

I don't question your work just because you use high quality, overpriced tools.

I worked in a large auto body/ motor repair shop when I was in collage. I'd love to know what tools this guy was using that made him so much better and faster than anyone else? I know awesome body guys, and great mechanics, but all used mostly the same tools. My experience was it was the guy, not the tools. I don't know any professional anything that uses junk tools, and one day perhaps they will all be using festools, but I wouldn't hold my breath as long as competition exists.
I did not know any better back then and questioned him

What tools are these?
He reminded me how he would save

In that case my guess is he would be more likely to have a high priced $300 Fein shop vac than an overpriced $600 Festering "dust extractor"
Frugality recognizes the laws of diminishing returns.
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I'm certainly not a "rich banker" but for much of my life I couldn't afford good so bought what I could afford (mostly Crapsman). I got sick of using the garbage and kept them far too long because I didn't want to throw them away. At one point I just said never again - if I can't afford good tools, I'll simply wait until I can. I can now afford pretty much whatever I can justify to myself. I may have to wait for a while to buy the best but if it's important to me, that's what I buy. So, yes, I do have a couple of Festools. There are several tools in their lineup that I just can't justify, though.
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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:29 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Agree with that 100%. I've also noticed one other thing too. As I've gotten older, I've been greatly appreciating the quality aspect of things.
Consider food when I was younger. It most often was quantity over quality that was foremost in my mind. Now it's done a 180 and quality is paramount.
Hell, I can't eat near as much as I could so quality is just about the only thing left to look forward to. :)
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On 8/27/2012 8:01 PM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Yep ... I haven't seen a _need_ thus far to own anything other than the four Festool sanders, a TS75 track saw, and the CT22E dust extractor that can be used with all the above.
While a few of their other products would be "nice to have" (some drills, the big Domino) I really can't justify replacing the excellent tools I already own that perform those jobs unless there is a clear need, and opportunity (I generally price absolutely _required_ tools into a job, upfront ... not everyone can do that) to do so.
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Many of their responses might be dependent on the type of contractors they were. But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be really interesting to take your representative three contractors and show them what the Domino could do along side a biscuit joiner.
Similarly, and again dependent on the type of contracting they did, I wonder how interested they'd be in some apparently regular sounding products that were mostly dust free.
I haven't done any home contracting for near thirty five years, but I *do* remember how much of a pain it was when working onsite in a client's home to keep it dust free.
Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up, making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than it was.
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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

Can't beat a track saw for cutting sheet goods accurately.
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On 8/27/2012 9:30 PM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

AND the cut being the final cut. And that is not just a Festool thing any more, the Makita and DeWalt saws can do this now also although I could not testify as to which works better in all aspects.
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I looked at them before I bought the Festool. They aren't really any cheaper and the Fesstool has more accessories available.
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On 8/28/2012 8:43 AM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Yeah they are all close enough in price, to be considered. But like you said Festool has more accessories and I know that they integrate with each other pretty well.
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On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:43:45 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

To appreciate Festool you have to look at their system approach. If I was a contractor doing onsite work I would be owning much more then I do.
Mike M
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