Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig

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Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start sock puppet theater.
;^)
We're watching, you know.
Robert
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wrote:

LMAO!. The visual cracks me up.
Angela started up something with Google, I'm not sure what. I plop my ass down in her study (adjacent to the kitchen) and go online while the green tea steeps. I don't always check who is logged in.... obviously.
Her comment?
"You talking to yourself now?"
r
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"Robatoy" wrote
Her comment?
"You talking to yourself now?" ========================= Well......., you rarely get into trouble talking to yourself. And people tend to leave you alone too.
It is like buying presents for yourself. You always get what you want. No need to suggest or change topics. With yourself, you are always on topic.
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If you argue with yourself, don't forget the other guy's an idiot. :-)
Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
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Worst of the 'paying for it' world though. But, it's one of those things that exemplifies 'you get what you pay for'. Only real consideration is how often might it be used? If it's three or four times a year on relatively small jobs, then it's just not worth the cost IMHO.
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A tool not worth the cost??????
You simply do not understand and are committing a serious heresy with those words. Do you really belong on the wreck or are you just trolling?
:-)
Luigi
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Domino. Best of both worlds.
Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive.
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Leon wrote:

Unfortunately, it's probably not. Way back when the biscuit joiner was introduced, people were running around touting it as the best thing since sliced bread. Then everyone started using them and... they're just not. They're great for alignment, certainly, but they're really not going to add any strength to your joints and you can certainly do a lot better. Now the tool is ubiquitous. The same will be true of the Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
In the end, the Domino will just be another piece of early-adopter junk, in a few years everyone will have their own versions out, you can pick a cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a faster way.
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Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker joints?
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EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength, and more. Scientific enough for me to prove that biscuits add strength.
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/Abstract/abstract1.html
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NOT biscuits. Documentation that Domino joints are weaker and not a better way.
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Upscale wrote:

FWW did a pretty comprehensive set of joint style/fit/glues test a year or two ago at the lab at (iirc) Case Western.
I _believe_ I remember that loose tenons came in _slightly_ behind integral ones; not greatly, but a little iirc.
--
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Upscale wrote:

Perhaps he meant strongER. Edge gluing long grain to make panels rather than using plywood is what the guy was asking about. It is well known today's glue makes long grain joints stronger than the wood itself. Ergo, the only purpose of dowels or biscuits in this type of joint is alignment, not strength. My experience is to just glue up the joint with no dowels, biscuits, splines or anything else is easy and sufficient. IF I had a nice biscuit joiner, I might use it sparingly to align things easily, but not for strength.
It is also well known that end grain joints require more than glue, and need mortise and tenons, biscuits or dowels for strength. There is little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joint is a heck of a lot faster to make. Dowel joints suck and are difficult to make without the proper equipment, and the little dowel jigs sold at hardware stores ain't the proper equipment, in my limited experience.
From watching all the tool salesman on TV, they seem to use biscuits mostly for edge gluing, and they use like a million of them on each edge, with glue squirting out everywhere. Really lame.
Mortise and tenon is occasionally still used by Norm to sell the Delta mortiser I reckon, but Scott tends to use the Kreg Pocket hole machine for about everything. I do have the pocket hole thingee, also have a mortise machine. Not sure why the $700 Festool gadget is not used for this stuff, as it seems it's mainly what it's good for.
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Jack
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Jack Stein wrote: ...

I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...
OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests included biscuits--I don't recall.
--
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Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He tested both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.
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MikeWhy wrote: ...

That's exactly what one would expect given the mechanical differences between them--and I was pretty sure I remembered the test results confirming it for the two m&ts, but didn't remember whether the biscuits were included in that set of testing or not.
I'd never think of using them for the purpose for anything other than simply holding a face frame together or some other similar non-critical, non-stressed location.
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MikeWhy wrote:

OK, then the question would be, is a biscuit joint weaker to the point it makes a difference? It would seem to me that if the joints were failing, no one would be using the $700 biscuit joiner? I know they are not needed for strength in long grain joints such as the original poster was asking, but assume they must work for end gain joints or why would anyone spend $700 on a Festool Domino, or a $30 HF for that matter?
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Jack
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Jack Stein wrote: ...

Yes.
They're fine for face frames, light panels, etc., etc., etc., ... Their main advantage and why they're used as much as are is quick and easy and accurate.
They won't/don't replace m&t for anything that has any actual load--heavy doors, chair rails, etc., ...
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MikeWhy wrote:

In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1% difference in measured strength between the two, which, and depending upon the project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into account other factors like convenience and speed, particularly when doing "production runs" in a small shop setting.
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AND I would think stronger where you are using harder stronger tennons than the wood they are joining.
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